windfarms.where are the birds?

rossy · #1 (**permalink**) 04-09-2009, 01:47 PM

this has been on my mind for some time. recently i went up to scout moor where 26 turbines have been erected . before these were put up birds used to all around but all i came across was 2 crows . now unless the rest were hiding behind a wall i found it rather odd. is there any near your area ? also do you think they will return in time . seemed quite eirie no birds singing . rossy.

loripo · #2 (**permalink**) 05-09-2009, 07:10 PM

There have been a number of threads on WAB about wind farms, mainly whether they cause obstructions to migrating birds etc. but birds can hear and I wonder if they hear the ultra low sounds of the turbines and that might keep them away?

ChrisJB · #3 (**permalink**) 05-09-2009, 08:06 PM

Scout Moor? More like Scout wasteland now. Scout Moor used to be great for upland birds and prior to the wind-farm a place I oft' walked over since I was a lad. I would set off from Lanehead and go over to Waugh's Well, Whittle Pike and Knowl Hill. In early May, dotterel always stopped off at Top o' Leach, golden plover and dunlin used to breed up there, as did twite on the mooredge. I last visited last year, going up Knowl Hill and I could've wept. Instead of blanket bog, moss and peat groughs, the expanses were criss-crossed with service roads and all seemed to be rubble. A moor had passed away into memory. The only birds I saw were a few crows over and the odd meadow pipit on the periphery.

Regards, Chris

loripo · #4 (**permalink**) 05-09-2009, 08:32 PM

I've just been looking that up. Huge area affected isnt it? I tenbd to forget when I see the images of the turbines that there is a huge infrastructure needed to maintain & sustain them.
Google Image Result for http://www.scoutmoorwindfarm.co.uk/ukmap.gif

This is the site - have a look under ecology - generous of them isnt it

big bill · #5 (**permalink**) 06-09-2009, 05:00 PM

I do not want to detract from your original post but in my view for what they do and they amount of electricity that they produce they are a waste of time and space .The whole country would have to be covered in them and now they are talking about making some sort of machine to emitt gasses into the atmosphere to try and copy what tree`s do or something like it ,what ever next

loripo · #6 (**permalink**) 06-09-2009, 05:06 PM

Yes I saw that - I think my thread is "why not real trees" totally Alice in Wonderland

The Woodman · #7 (**permalink**) 06-09-2009, 05:28 PM

I have found the commissioned ecologists Scoping Study for a wind farm scheme near me. It makes interesting reading as I know the area pretty well.

Here's the link if anybody is interested in a what happens in regard of the environment and it's species whith such a proposal, have a look at this

http://www.striberswindfarm.co.uk/pd...33602-R004.pdf

The bird life was monitored by ecologists who drove up from either Brighton or Bournemouth - I can't remember which.

There will an avaialble EIA /SS for Scout Hill and it would be interesting for those with a knowledge of the area to compare the findings.

It is important to formally record what you have seen on these special places so that they are available to those with an interest, whatever it maybe, for the preservation and conservation of the area concerned.

rossy · #8 (**permalink**) 06-09-2009, 09:55 PM

thanks for that woodman but i think you get the picture from my account of what i saw up there and chris who both know the area well. a pair of crows . i can remember reed buntings nesting skylarks meadow pipits wagtails its strange and ill go back up next april , may to see if anything has returned but i wont be holding my breath. rossy

The Woodman · #9 (**permalink**) 07-09-2009, 06:53 AM

You've raised an interesting point rossy and one I havn't given much thought to before last night.

Whilst a scoping study will determine what is present on a site pre development and the EIA may well contain mitigation for anything detrimental, I cannot recall seeing any post development survey document on bird populations in particular.

I can imagine the bird population of a windfarm would suffer dramatically and will see if I can find out more.

loripo · #10 (**permalink**) 07-09-2009, 07:22 AM

Not sure if this has been posted - a comment by the RSPB last year

The RSPB: Wind farms

They also have a map for Scotland showing sensitive areas for wildlife.
Cant see any followup investigations of operating Windfarms tho - that would be interesting - unless the info is being kept quiet.

The Woodman · #11 (**permalink**) 07-09-2009, 07:48 AM

As it's mentioned in that RSPB article, I've been to the windfarm at Tarifa in Spain and can say that it's quite horrendous, the scale of the ever expanding development, the sound of older turbines gear boxes grinding away and that sickly smell of hot gear oil.

Ground getting eaten up with service tracks and maintenance depots, etc.

The unkown factor must be disturbance. Will the birds return to their prefered habitat when there's towering, potentially 24/7 revolving machines dominating the area?

Johnny Redgate · #12 (**permalink**) 07-09-2009, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loripo

Not sure if this has been posted - a comment by the RSPB last year

The RSPB: Wind farms

They also have a map for Scotland showing sensitive areas for wildlife.
Cant see any followup investigations of operating Windfarms tho - that would be interesting - unless the info is being kept quiet.

I have worked on a few wind farm EIAs but unfortunately not as an ornithologist as that is not my area of expertise. However, I am aware of at least one site where long term post development bird monitoring is ongoing, including breeding bird surveys and casualty monitoring. It would be nice to think the data will be published one day. The continuing data collection is part of the conditions for the permission for the development and is made available to the agencies. I would imagine this is repeated elsewhere. It might be worth asking the question direct of SNH when data and monitoring reports might be publicly available. Sorry, but I don't know and cannot supply further details.

The Woodman · #13 (**permalink**) 07-09-2009, 09:03 AM

That's good to know Johnny.

Have you any idea what would happen if it was shown that the development was detrimental?

I couldn't imagine turbines being pulled down due to a crash in Meadow Pipit numbers.

Johnny Redgate · #14 (**permalink**) 07-09-2009, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Woodman

That's good to know Johnny.

Have you any idea what would happen if it was shown that the development was detrimental?

I couldn't imagine turbines being pulled down due to a crash in Meadow Pipit numbers.

The reason for the monitoring must be to drive future policy and guide SNH etc re their reposnse to future windfarm applications. Also to test the methodology for calculating collision risks for birds. As you probably know substantial pre-application bird surveys are undertaken, often over more than 1 year. One of the methods employed is to do timed surveys from vantage points plotting flight lines of all birds flying through the proposed turbine area. My (not overly detailed) understanding is that after these have been plotted on the turbine layout map a fairly complicated mathematical risk of collision can be calculated for different species taking into account the total survey time, the time spent in the turbine area (scaled up to a full year or appropriate part thereof for migratory species), flight direction and height, turbine height and rotor diameter together with a factor to allow for birds seeing and avoiding the turbines. In effect the result is how many (if any) of a particular species are likely to be killed in a year. Monitoring would hopefully confirm or not the figures and therefore provide a test of the method. I don't know enough about it to provide more detail I'm afraid (I'm mainly a plants and habitats man myself) but it must be published / described in EIAs as collision risk assessments are standard in EIAs.

The Woodman · #15 (**permalink**) 07-09-2009, 11:09 AM

Thanks for the explantion Johnny and I'll see if I can dig out an EIA for a scheme.

lucy78green · #16 (**permalink**) 07-09-2009, 04:15 PM

I have worked on wind-farms (as an archaeologist) and I am only there to monitor during the construction phase. They are not allowed to do any construction between April and August so that breeding birds aren't disturbed and an ecologist monitors the construction phase as well. We weren't told about collisions in relation to birds, but bats having their ear-drums ruptured (in USA) I think by the air turbulence???? (not sure exact cause) and therefore not being able to detect blades and flying into them. Hen harriers have been seen on some of the wind-farms I've been on and I've seen other sorts of birds up there (started a debate on id in wee brown bird thread, can't find it now). Not an expert, but maybe as ours are located in bogs there isn't as much diversity of wildlife there to disturb?

Johnny Redgate · #17 (**permalink**) 07-09-2009, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Woodman

Thanks for the explantion Johnny and I'll see if I can dig out an EIA for a scheme.

Here is a link to the Lewis Wind EIA. There is plenty of info in the ornithology chapter on methods.

Lewis Wind Farm | Planning Application

loripo · #18 (**permalink**) 07-09-2009, 04:56 PM

This is in the current New Scientist...
Circling turbines spell doom for vultures - environment - 06 September 2009 - New Scientist

I would have thought bogs were excellent areas for wildlife, but I'm sure someone will know about that for certain.

Johnny Redgate · #19 (**permalink**) 07-09-2009, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loripo

This is in the current New Scientist...
Circling turbines spell doom for vultures - environment - 06 September 2009 - New Scientist

I would have thought bogs were excellent areas for wildlife, but I'm sure someone will know about that for certain.

Yes they are indeed. EIAs for windfarms in the uplands/peatlands tend to be big documents. Have a look at the full version of the Lewis Wind EIA if you're interested. PS I did not work on the EIA for that proposal!

The Woodman · #20 (**permalink**) 08-09-2009, 08:10 AM

Johnny, I've been reading Chapter 12 for the last two hours and have been engrossed in the information. I've learnt so much from it.

I guess the survey effort reflects the importance of Lewis as a bird site but I have an uncomfortable feeling that this scheme is in the wrong place.

I'll continue to the end and then perhaps I'll re-read it - there's so much to absorb.

Bet the surveyors had a great time on Lewis with all those S1 species to watch all day.

Do you have a link to the updated fauna section by any chance?

Many thanks for the link and apologies to rossy for sidetracking the Scout Moor issue.

Johnny Redgate · #21 (**permalink**) 08-09-2009, 08:46 AM

Hi Woodman

Just have a scout around the Lewis Wind website for the info you want. This is all public domain stuff although you will probably find some sections marked as confidential because of the some of the species concerned. I expect some updated info will be on there.

As the original proposal has been rejected the decision makers would appear to have concerns about its location too.

I enjoyed my survey work on wind farm proposals despite their potential to disturb the areas concerned. Upland survey areas of up to 80 km sq were a challenge to say the least.

Johnny Redgate · #22 (**permalink**) 08-09-2009, 08:51 AM

Re the Scout Moor issue - I apologise for the diversion to Lewis also. I posted the link to the info because its a very detailed view of a wind farm EIA that I knew about and that is easy to get to. I hope it is of interest to others looking into wind farm issues. There will be many other wind farm EIAs out there on the web.

rossy · #23 (**permalink**) 08-09-2009, 08:55 AM

woodman no need to apologise to me as im grateful for you digging deeper into such an important issue as far as im concerned after all this about when were gone and hopefully other people up and down the country will have a platform to back any issues against these windfarms. facts are facts and its a crying shame if wildlife has to suffer for man. like i said i will monitor the area as nature is good at surprising us which i hope is the case thanks . rossy.

The Woodman · #24 (**permalink**) 08-09-2009, 02:24 PM

I've just dug out a couple of shots at the windfarm at Tarifa in Spain, as mentioned in the RSPB article.

I know it's not Britain, but things cannot get as bad as this, can they?

The images don't do justice to the situation, but imagine getting to a bird observatory in the middle of this lot on one of the best known migration routes north of the Straits of Gibralta.

Every ridge was lined with turbines and evidence of plenty more going up at the time. The first image shows some of the older ones with their stinky noisy gearboxes.

Johnny Redgate · #25 (**permalink**) 08-09-2009, 03:02 PM

Woodman, it looks from your picture to be a closely packed array of smallish turbines (15 - 20m tower?). I wonder why - old technology or thought to be below migration height? Just guessing. Not the sort of thing thats most often being proposed in the UK at present. Fewer, more widely spaced but much bigger turbines (to 100m towers) seem the norm.