Maybe juveniles?.....

[Andreas]

I'd be grateful for help in identifying these 2 birds - maybe juveniles?
Many thanks

[ron1863]

Hi Andreas, they looks like juvenile Robin - Erithacus rubecula to me. You can just see the start of the markings on the breast.

[Picidae]

Originally Posted by ron1863

Hi Andreas, they looks like juvenile Robin - Erithacus rubecula to me. ...

They are juvenile Robins


Nice pic Andreas.

[Jonners]

Around this time of year you might also find that adult robins lose some of their redness and become a bit speckly, but you can also see the yellow remnants of their baby gapes at the back of the beaks on these juveniles. Great shots, Andreas.

[Jenny W]

Originally Posted by Jonners

Around this time of year you might also find that adult robins lose some of their redness and become a bit speckly

?Do they? Those that have finished breeding will be starting to go through post-natal moult around now and although they will be worn, they don't look 'speckly'. The breast moult will start during primary moult but old feathers are replaced by the same red coloured ones. Some birds that are breeding for their first year will have retained some old greater coverts from their juvenile plumage, but these wouldn't be that obvious unless in the hand.

Please prove me wrong though if adults do go speckly when in p-n moult.

[Picidae]

Originally Posted by Jenny W

?Do they? Those that have finished breeding will be starting to go through post-natal moult around now and although they will be worn, they don't look 'speckly'. The breast moult will start during primary moult but old feathers are replaced by the same red coloured ones. Some birds that are breeding for their first year will have retained some old greater coverts from their juvenile plumage, but these wouldn't be that obvious unless in the hand.

Adults do not have a post natal moult.

Post natal moult starts in the nest and continues until birds have their juvenile plumage (such as shown in Andreas's photos). The natal down of the chicks is pushed out by the growth of the new feathers and the down drops off. (The fledging process which enables them to fly and leave the nest). Juvenile plumage lasts only a short time until the post juvenal moult has been completed.

As Robins have an extended breeding season, (with several broods, it's possible to see juveniles from an earlier brood that have almost completed their post juvenal moult by the end of July bar a few greater coverts, along with all the body feathers so appear with a full red breast ( moult can be extended to all their greater coverts too, so not always an indication of aging after the post juvenal moult). The adults don't moult their body feathers until late summer through to October when autumn breeding has finished so by mid summer they can look very worn on the breast and loose the brightness. They start the primary moult (ie. when the primaries are moulted) round about end of June. Moult is always a gradual process and the variation amongst individuals is always something to consider. Robin only moult once a year and essentially reach adulthood by the end of their juvenal moult.

You were basically right, but I think a little muddled on your terminology!

[Jenny W]

Originally Posted by Picidae

Adults do not have a post natal moult.

Post natal moult starts in the nest and continues until birds have their juvenile plumage (such as shown in Andreas's photos). The natal down of the chicks is pushed out by the growth of the new feathers and the down drops off. (The fledging process which enables them to fly and leave the nest). Juvenile plumage lasts only a short time until the post juvenal moult has been completed.

As Robins have an extended breeding season, (with several broods, it's possible to see juveniles from an earlier brood that have almost completed their post juvenal moult by the end of July bar a few greater coverts, along with all the body feathers so appear with a full red breast ( moult can be extended to all their greater coverts too, so not always an indication of aging after the post juvenal moult). The adults don't moult their body feathers until late summer through to October when autumn breeding has finished so by mid summer they can look very worn on the breast and loose the brightness. They start the primary moult (ie. when the primaries are moulted) round about end of June. Moult is always a gradual process and the variation amongst individuals is always something to consider. Robin only moult once a year and essentially reach adulthood by the end of their juvenal moult.

You were basically right, but I think a little muddled on your terminology!

Adults do undergo a complete post-nuptial moult that starts any time from early June to early August and is completed by late July to early October. Juveniles undergo a partial post-juvenile moult that as you say starts shortly after fledging - some do retain some old greater coverts, but not all - I did not suggest that they all do! Robins can be very difficult to age in the hand because of this, as many juveniles as you say essentially become 'adult' pretty soon after fledging.

I think what's happened here is that I've used the term 'post-natal' when I actually mean 'post-nuptial' - my fault, not thinking straight.

[Jonners]

Originally Posted by Jenny W

?Do they? Those that have finished breeding will be starting to go through post-natal moult around now and although they will be worn, they don't look 'speckly'. The breast moult will start during primary moult but old feathers are replaced by the same red coloured ones. Some birds that are breeding for their first year will have retained some old greater coverts from their juvenile plumage, but these wouldn't be that obvious unless in the hand.

Please prove me wrong though if adults do go speckly when in p-n moult.

OK. Maybe not speckly, but some do appear to lose their redness, and so at first glance might look like a juvenile. Or perhaps I'm completely wrong and they ARE juveniles. I'll keep looking, and hopefully keep learning.

[Picidae]

Originally Posted by Jenny W

?Do they? Those that have finished breeding will be starting to go through post-natal moult around now

Originally Posted by Jenny

Adults do undergo a complete post-nuptial moult

As I said Jenny, your first post indicated a confusion with the terminolgy. I wasn't attacking you, merely correcting something you said earlier.

Originally Posted by Jenny

The breast moult will start during primary moult but old feathers are replaced by the same red coloured ones.

(and just to avoid any further confusion ), as I said primary moult is actually the moulting of the primaries which occurs earlier than body moult in adults, so, adults don't actually start moulting their body feathers at the same time (ie. those moult after the breeding season, which in Robins is extended - although they will start their primary moult about now which will continue and lead into body moult).


Jonners, there's no confusion possible when birds are in fresh juvenal plumage - as yours are. As the summer progresses, it will be harder to tell, especially those from early broods. To be honest, unless you're a ringer or doing breeding bird surveys, I wouldn't worry too much about aging intermediate looking Robins until you're familiar with their Juvenal and Basic plumages. (There's only two plumages since Robin only moult once a year)

[Jenny W]

Yeah, sorry no worries! As I said - a case of I said 'natal' when I meant 'nuptial' Doh!