Blu Tit found dead

[Garden Carpet]

But DA... I have seen birds display affection... not wild birds admittedly.. but they are still capapble of it..

actualy.. i have seen wild birds display what seems to be affection.. I think we all have seen that. Think about a pair of swans.. and think of the distress they display when they lose a life long partner

jaki

[Doggle Avaddit]

Originally Posted by Garden Carpet

But DA... I have seen birds display affection... not wild birds admittedly.. but they are still capapble of it..

actualy.. i have seen wild birds display what seems to be affection.. I think we all have seen that. Think about a pair of swans.. and think of the distress they display when they lose a life long partner

jaki

You see the problem I have with the "birds show affection, loss etc" thing, is that generally it is assumed they must be doing what we do when we show affection, loss etc. I doubt this is the case.

We have all seen documentaries of bears fishing for salmon - they rip off the skin and bite off large chunks of flesh while the fish is writhing about. We might see this and say "Oh the poor fish, it must be so painful and traumatic, what a horrible way to die, writhing in agony". But is that really the experience of the fish? Sure, if that were us being eaten by a bear we certainly would be in a world of pain and trauma and it would truly be a horrible way to die, for us.

Predation and premature death is a natural part of the animal experience. Raptors catch smaller birds and devour them without always humanely killing them first. Partners get killed or die, chicks throw their siblings out of their nest or eat them. A very small percentage of animals make it to the breeding stage at all. Death, eating and being eaten is part of their world and they are well equipped to deal with it. We are not. At all. Which is probably why it horrifies us so much. Small children being savaged or killed by dogs, and the effect that has on everyone, is something very difficult for us to bear, for example.

You cannot look at a scene in the animal world and apply your own feelings, emotions and experiences to it and hope to make sense of it, you need to try and see how it is for the animal itself, from their perspective and apply their experiences, awarenesses, capabilities, (or lack of them), to the situation. They are all very very different to our own.

[Garden Carpet]

Originally Posted by Doggle Avaddit

You cannot look at a scene in the animal world and apply your own feelings, emotions and experiences to it and hope to make sense of it, you need to try and see how it is for the animal itself, from their perspective and apply their experiences, awarenesses, capabilities, (or lack of them), to the situation. They are all very very different to our own.

If we are going to extend the arguement into the animal world then I think you must include dogs, cats, horses and other such animals which clearly express emotion which is clearly not just humans saying it is so.

My arguement is that we do not know what these creatures are capable of in the way of emotion. We continualy 'discover' such abilities in various animals to the 'amazement' of all concerned.

One a lighter note. Perhaps that swan was doing what a lot of young males of various species seem to do... and that is preening infront of the mirror practising his patter!

[Doggle Avaddit]

Originally Posted by Garden Carpet

If we are going to extend the arguement into the animal world then I think you must include dogs, cats, horses and other such animals which clearly express emotion which is clearly not just humans saying it is so.

My arguement is that we do not know what these creatures are capable of in the way of emotion. We continualy 'discover' such abilities in various animals to the 'amazement' of all concerned.

No we do not know. The "Oh the poor bird, fish, etc" reaction has no basis in known fact whatsoever.
But the thread was discussing Birds, and Blue Tits in particular, who have very small and limited in capability brains. Various parts of the brain that are thought to be involved with more advanced cognitive abilities and processing are just not present in these creatures.
Larger animals with much more complex and developed brains, like Elephants and Dolphins, are a totally different matter, and would need another thread starting!

[Garden Carpet]

DA. Sorry, I guess I didn't make myself clear. By 'these creatures' I meant all... including birds. We can not know.. therefore we can not say they Do or they Dont

Jaki

PS. I will let you start that new thread

[Doggle Avaddit]

Originally Posted by Garden Carpet

DA. Sorry, I guess I didn't make myself clear. By 'these creatures' I meant all... including birds. We can not know.. therefore we can not say they Do or they Dont

Jaki

PS. I will let you start that new thread

Yes, I agree that we cannot know at the moment one way or the other.

I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, or if I have I apologise, that wasn't my intention. I am questioning and comparing the logic/emotions that result in the belief of one view over the other.

I also understand, as you say, that there is much evidence yet to be found, perhaps supporting both sides of the argument.

I think it highly likely that the higher animals will surprise us greatly, I'm just not sure the Blue Tits need to be much smarter than they actually are!