"Rules on killing ravens relaxed"

[Ukwildlifeo]

from here on the bbc website

BBC NEWS | Scotland | Highlands and Islands | Rules on killing ravens relaxed

Seems a bit extreme to cull a bird with only 12,000 pairs in the entire UK....

[Lance Morgan]

Exactly. damage caused to livestock is very small and animals would probably die anyway. Madness

[squishy]

it's the same as the blame on the magpie for decline in song birds. (except even more stupid)
people prefere to look for these easy solutions that pass the blame onto other animals so that they can feel better about themselves.

it's not just extreme, its stupid, pigheaded, pointless and wont solve anything. all it will do is devistate our ravens, absolutely magnificent birds, and then someone will probably blame eagles or something for the decline in ravens. madness

[Lance Morgan]

If they relax the rules for Ravens bop will be targeted too

[lovfinion]

This is pretty disturbing news, these farmers wont be happy till every Raven+BOP is exterminated and I believe that would make them all very happy...
Guess I need to do more research, didn't know Raven's predated Lambs, I live and learn...

These magnificient Birds are by far my favorite British species and it saddens me to know, that they are once again going to be culled

[epops]

Never read such utter rubbish as said before Bird of Prey will be next

[squishy]

when will people learn that we are not the only, or most important, things on this planet.

probably only when we have killed everything that annoys us in the slightest, and the world falls apart as a consequence

[The Woodman]

It isn't rubbish, it's true. Ravens are adapting their behaviour and are now killing more lambs than ever before. The lambs they kill are not just "bad dooers", 20 ravens can quickly render a healthy fit lamb into a blind, gut hanging mess. I've seen it.
There is at least one documented record of ravens killing a calf.
The subject has nothing to do with BoP control.
My concern is the method of control. Ravens are a most intelligent bird, endowed with remarkable eyesight and if you've ever tried to get near one, you'll know how hard it is. I cannot imagine the economics of a farmer waiting in a hide for a couple of hours to take one shot at a luckless bird coming in to laid carrion bait. That birds cohorts will not go near that bait again. So how will it be done? The silent killers perhaps- mechanical or chemical?

[diggleken]

Originally Posted by The Woodman

It isn't rubbish, it's true. Ravens are adapting their behaviour and are now killing more lambs than ever before. The lambs they kill are not just "bad dooers", 20 ravens can quickly render a healthy fit lamb into a blind, gut hanging mess. I've seen it.
There is at least one documented record of ravens killing a calf.
The subject has nothing to do with BoP control.
My concern is the method of control. Ravens are a most intelligent bird, endowed with remarkable eyesight and if you've ever tried to get near one, you'll know how hard it is. I cannot imagine the economics of a farmer waiting in a hide for a couple of hours to take one shot at a luckless bird coming in to laid carrion bait. That birds cohorts will not go near that bait again. So how will it be done? The silent killers perhaps- mechanical or chemical?

they sure are clever birds -most corvids seem to be - in the canadian rockies they get very very close (plus Clarkes nutcrackers), quite disconcerting for such a large bird with such a vicious beak, but I love em - still dont think there should be any cull in spite of some damage done - surely its acceptable to take some hits with lambs. It goes with the territory as a hill farmer.
Ken

[Gill Catton]

I was under the impression that its likely to be about only about removing problem birds or reducing raven numbers where they are causing a problem?

I'm not sure about ravens killing a calf as they struggle to get through skin of animals even squirrel skin can defeat them! They're generally only able to eat exterior soft parts like eyes and tongue though they can utilise any wound around the umbilical cord should an animal be born with a little gut exposed here for example.

Obviously though removing tongue and eyes leaves an animal who really ought to be dead and would be pretty shortly. There is no doubt then that ravens can do a lot of damage to a flock of upland sheep lambing in the open air espcially as they can breed fairly early and young ravens eat A LOT of food.

It wouldn't suprise me if ravens to learnt that this behaviour or venturing into certain farmsteads gets them killed or shot at and they may well move on. They are incredibly intelligent birds.

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by diggleken

they sure are clever birds -most corvids seem to be - in the canadian rockies they get very very close (plus Clarkes nutcrackers), quite disconcerting for such a large bird with such a vicious beak, but I love em - still dont think there should be any cull in spite of some damage done - surely its acceptable to take some hits with lambs. It goes with the territory as a hill farmer.
Ken

but I think that may be what it comes down to, if you lose a significant percentage of your stock and therefore livelyhood to ravens you're going to want to do something about it so you can feed your family?

Doubtless there are some farmers who'd want them gone even if it was only one lamb a year - even though 30 drown in streams but I'd have thought most would only want them removed or numbers reduced if it was severly hurting their pocket?

maybe I'm being too naive?

[Meta menardi]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

but I think that may be what it comes down to, if you lose a significant percentage of your stock and therefore livelyhood to ravens you're going to want to do something about it so you can feed your family?

Doubtless there are some farmers who'd want them gone even if it was only one lamb a year - even though 30 drown in streams but I'd have thought most would only want them removed or numbers reduced if it was severly hurting their pocket?

maybe I'm being too naive?

I think you have it about right. I wonder if Raven feeding stations could help to lower the pressure in areas where there is a problem? Most lambing seasons produce carcases, at the moment they cannot be buried, they can't be left and they can't go to the hunt. Perhaps a bit of thought could get some kind of compromise. I certainly think control by shooting could be very difficult, poisoning must be completely unacceptable.

I only suggest the lamb carcase as it is a resource of sorts, but it does get tidied away. What are scavengers to do?

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by Meta menardi

I think you have it about right. I wonder if Raven feeding stations could help to lower the pressure in areas where there is a problem? Most lambing seasons produce carcases, at the moment they cannot be buried, they can't be left and they can't go to the hunt. Perhaps a bit of thought could get some kind of compromise. I certainly think control by shooting could be very difficult, poisoning must be completely unacceptable.

There is a risk that feeding stations encourage more younger birds to stay in an area due to food always being available allowing them to feed when a resident pair is elsewhere - in fact if you kill a resident pair the result may well be more ravens that normal as the pair usually drive all youngersters out of their territory.

a difficult problem for all parties that's for sure

[nightshade]

It is always sad when Corvids and farmers fall out, I can see both sides of this story but will admit my sympathy is with the Raven.

[Meta menardi]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

There is a risk that feeding stations encourage more younger birds to stay in an area due to food always being available allowing them to feed when a resident pair is elsewhere - in fact if you kill a resident pair the result may well be more ravens that normal as the pair usually drive all youngersters out of their territory.

a difficult problem for all parties that's for sure

I appreciate the problems you mention, and of course it could be argued that they will learn that lamb carcases come from live lambs. I suppose it is a problem unlikely to be simply solved.

[The Woodman]

I've always had a niggling concern when issues like this crop up. I once heard a pro hunting spokeswoman defend the "sport" on R4 prior to the Mammal Act by saying, "have you ever seen a flock of hens decimated when the fox has been in the hen hut". Well, the answer's simple -surely -practice good husbandry and shut the hen house door at night.

Is it that simple?

When needs must, a predator will hunt using non regular methods. Owls can hunt in the daytime when they have large broods to feed, vixens take ducks in broad daylight when they have large litters to feed etc., etc.

Man in his wisdom should be able to overcome most husbandry difficulties in relation to predation. On the other hand, intelligent predators will adapt by successful trial and error and behaviours may change. Evolution?

If lamb predation does continue on an unacceptable scale and when all prophylactic measures fail, a mitigation feeding strategy ought to be considered.

[Dogghound]

Its quit simple to ensure pens are predator proof. Its just bad practice and easier to kill them than to keep livestock out of harms way. Lets face it we dont exactly have lots of large predators roaming around, thank god we dont have lions or our farmers would have a much needed reality check.

If lambs are at such risk then why not keep them indoors until they are large enough to cope. Unfortunately one of the niggles of being a farmer is you will loose the odd animal or the odd percentage of the crop but thats life. I didnt manage to get any much needed overtime at work, but I dont go around moaning about it like its the end of the world and thats my livelyhood.

[Jason Green]

Originally Posted by epops

Never read such utter rubbish as said before Bird of Prey will be next

Originally Posted by The Woodman

The subject has nothing to do with BoP control.

The link here I think is that if people see that rules on the persecution of ravens can be 'relaxed', then it'll open the floodgates for some people to try and have equivalent laws around BoP lowered...

Jonnie Hall, NFU Scotland says:

The suffering experienced by animals attacked by groups of ravens was particularly striking, as was the distress it caused to the farmers involved

What about shooting then, haven't they thought about the pain the poor bird would go through, especially if it survived?! I dissagree with shooting as I've said before, there must be other ways.. surely.

[The Woodman]

From The Arran Voice
‘These birds are killers. They are highly intelligent,’ Jim told the Arran Voice. ‘The more leeway they get, the worse it gets ... I’ve had newly born lambs with their guts hanging out, living and still bleating.’ Jim observed the horrific consequences of an attack on one of his calves last year. Unable to suckle its mother for milk, he found the calf had had its tongue pecked out and had to be later put down. He said farmers now often find themselves having to put animals out of their suffering before the vet arrives. 'The bird folk don't accept that this happens,' Jim added. 'Folks get sentimental about birds and badgers. But have a thought for what they leave behind for farmers to deal with.'

FromThe Mail
The worst-hit areas are in Scotland and Wales, but there are also reports of random attacks across the South-West and the Lake District.
The Scottish Isle of Mull has been badly hit, with one farmer losing 20 lambs in a fortnight.
Another, Robert Millar from High Catterdale, Kintyre, said: "We've had 12 to 15 lambs attacked. It's got to the stage where you have to lamb indoors, or you don't stand a chance."
And Jimmy Mills, a farmer from Stratherrick, south of Inverness, has lost seven lambs in just three days: "The lambs are born at 1pm and by four o'clock they've been taken to bits by the ravens," he says.
According to Johnny Hall, of the National Farmers Union of Scotland, it's no longer just lambs: "Raven attacks have become a huge problem across a wide area of the country.
"We have substantial evidence of them attacking adult sheep and calves, too. The attacks are so horrific that it's causing mental suffering to people who find the animals."

NFU Scotland submission
Ravens should be added to SEGEN 2. An example of the problems ravens can cause is highlighted in one specific story detailed to NFUS by a member. Ravens and crows surrounded a calving cow. The calfs head and feet were out and the calf s head was a mass of blood. The cause was that ravens had eaten right up one side of the calfs tongue.

There you have it.

[Dogghound]

I think Robert Miller has got the rite idea lamb indoors. Then keep them in for alittle while then when they are big enough let them out. I take it these are all farmers accounts and not scientific evidence? I dont deny it happens just the way its worded is like its totally decimating them.

P.S Badgers dont kill calves

[solus]

Originally Posted by Jason Green

The link here I think is that if people see that rules on the persecution of ravens can be 'relaxed', then it'll open the floodgates for some people to try and have equivalent laws around BoP lowered...

Remember this from only a few months ago?
Crofters blame eagles for rise in lamb losses

First Sea Eagles, now Ravens... what'll it be next?

I hope this won't turn out to be one of those "licence to kill" excuses for anyone who dislikes corvids and/or birds of prey to set off on a personal crusade to eliminate them regardless, without proepr research being carried out first to prove exactly which bird species (if any) is the cause of the problem.

[Jason Green]

I know people who don't like pigeons

Only recently it was suggested allowing people to shoot RNPs, too. Can you imagine? They aim the gun, fire... 'Oh, it's flown off' and then re-aim when it lands...

[Ukwildlifeo]

Originally Posted by The Woodman

From The Arran Voice
‘These birds are killers. They are highly intelligent,’ Jim told the Arran Voice. ‘The more leeway they get, the worse it gets ... I’ve had newly born lambs with their guts hanging out, living and still bleating.’ Jim observed the horrific consequences of an attack on one of his calves last year. Unable to suckle its mother for milk, he found the calf had had its tongue pecked out and had to be later put down. He said farmers now often find themselves having to put animals out of their suffering before the vet arrives. 'The bird folk don't accept that this happens,' Jim added. 'Folks get sentimental about birds and badgers. But have a thought for what they leave behind for farmers to deal with.'

FromThe Mail
The worst-hit areas are in Scotland and Wales, but there are also reports of random attacks across the South-West and the Lake District.
The Scottish Isle of Mull has been badly hit, with one farmer losing 20 lambs in a fortnight.
Another, Robert Millar from High Catterdale, Kintyre, said: "We've had 12 to 15 lambs attacked. It's got to the stage where you have to lamb indoors, or you don't stand a chance."
And Jimmy Mills, a farmer from Stratherrick, south of Inverness, has lost seven lambs in just three days: "The lambs are born at 1pm and by four o'clock they've been taken to bits by the ravens," he says.
According to Johnny Hall, of the National Farmers Union of Scotland, it's no longer just lambs: "Raven attacks have become a huge problem across a wide area of the country.
"We have substantial evidence of them attacking adult sheep and calves, too. The attacks are so horrific that it's causing mental suffering to people who find the animals."

NFU Scotland submission
Ravens should be added to SEGEN 2. An example of the problems ravens can cause is highlighted in one specific story detailed to NFUS by a member. Ravens and crows surrounded a calving cow. The calfs head and feet were out and the calf s head was a mass of blood. The cause was that ravens had eaten right up one side of the calfs tongue.

There you have it.

A local paper, the daily mail and the NFU. You'd be hard pressed to get more unrealiable sources

Seriously though, having googled ravens and lambs I found an articles from may/june 2008 with farmers describing scenes like those from an Alfred Hitchcock movie. I'll accept there is a problem (how bad it is really is the question) and I'm not sure shooting them will help, and posioning is never good news. One of the farmers talks of being 'reduced' to lambing indoors - if thats possible why not do it all the time, it stop the massive() losses they suffe from foxes and sea eagles etc and help prevent the main cause of loss too (exposure).

My biggest concern with all this is the fact they've relaxed the licensing, something that is there for a reason. How long until someone who would have never got a license shoots a 'Raven' that turns out to be a BOP?

[Meta menardi]

Whilst not disagreeing with any of the previous posts (including mine ), the prospect of lambing indoors is not without problems. A friend of mine used to shepherd 1000 ewes, I have lambed 200 ewe flocks, the infection build up can be a real problem, the space is not inconsiderable, it is not that simple. Hill flocks don't warrant the expenditure, but if any of us want to chip in to keep the countryside, especially the uplands, the way they are, lets get some organisation started.

A well managed flock will lamb in about 6 weeks (the majority), and very often be looked after by one person.

I had a week at Arnside this Autumn, and the Ravens flying over were delightful.

[lovfinion]

Originally Posted by Ukwildlifeo

A local paper, the daily mail and the NFU. You'd be hard pressed to get more unrealiable sources

Seriously though, having googled ravens and lambs I found an articles from may/june 2008 with farmers describing scenes like those from an Alfred Hitchcock movie. I'll accept there is a problem (how bad it is really is the question) and I'm not sure shooting them will help, and posioning is never good news. One of the farmers talks of being 'reduced' to lambing indoors - if thats possible why not do it all the time, it stop the massive() losses they suffe from foxes and sea eagles etc and help prevent the main cause of loss too (exposure).

My biggest concern with all this is the fact they've relaxed the licensing, something that is there for a reason. How long until someone who would have never got a license shoots a 'Raven' that turns out to be a BOP?

Agreed these articles/sources are dubious at best, farmers/crofters tend to exaggerate wildly regarding numbers lost and wont be happy till all large raptors and Ravens are exterminated..

Never heard of ravens ganging up to slaughter countless lambs & even attacking calfs before, sounds like the realms of fantasy to me (not that it's possible but the sheer numbers of livestock lost) or have ravens recently got together to formulate these vicious episodes?

It's always the same with man, get rid of any threat by extermination... large predator be it mammal or Bird have been driven out of the UK before, infact all large predators are lost, now it's the turn of Birds.. surprised Golden Eagles haven't been accused of anything recently..