"Rules on killing ravens relaxed"

[solus]

Originally Posted by Jason Green

The link here I think is that if people see that rules on the persecution of ravens can be 'relaxed', then it'll open the floodgates for some people to try and have equivalent laws around BoP lowered...

Remember this from only a few months ago?
Crofters blame eagles for rise in lamb losses

First Sea Eagles, now Ravens... what'll it be next?

I hope this won't turn out to be one of those "licence to kill" excuses for anyone who dislikes corvids and/or birds of prey to set off on a personal crusade to eliminate them regardless, without proepr research being carried out first to prove exactly which bird species (if any) is the cause of the problem.

[Jason Green]

I know people who don't like pigeons

Only recently it was suggested allowing people to shoot RNPs, too. Can you imagine? They aim the gun, fire... 'Oh, it's flown off' and then re-aim when it lands...

[Ukwildlifeo]

Originally Posted by The Woodman

From The Arran Voice
‘These birds are killers. They are highly intelligent,’ Jim told the Arran Voice. ‘The more leeway they get, the worse it gets ... I’ve had newly born lambs with their guts hanging out, living and still bleating.’ Jim observed the horrific consequences of an attack on one of his calves last year. Unable to suckle its mother for milk, he found the calf had had its tongue pecked out and had to be later put down. He said farmers now often find themselves having to put animals out of their suffering before the vet arrives. 'The bird folk don't accept that this happens,' Jim added. 'Folks get sentimental about birds and badgers. But have a thought for what they leave behind for farmers to deal with.'

FromThe Mail
The worst-hit areas are in Scotland and Wales, but there are also reports of random attacks across the South-West and the Lake District.
The Scottish Isle of Mull has been badly hit, with one farmer losing 20 lambs in a fortnight.
Another, Robert Millar from High Catterdale, Kintyre, said: "We've had 12 to 15 lambs attacked. It's got to the stage where you have to lamb indoors, or you don't stand a chance."
And Jimmy Mills, a farmer from Stratherrick, south of Inverness, has lost seven lambs in just three days: "The lambs are born at 1pm and by four o'clock they've been taken to bits by the ravens," he says.
According to Johnny Hall, of the National Farmers Union of Scotland, it's no longer just lambs: "Raven attacks have become a huge problem across a wide area of the country.
"We have substantial evidence of them attacking adult sheep and calves, too. The attacks are so horrific that it's causing mental suffering to people who find the animals."

NFU Scotland submission
Ravens should be added to SEGEN 2. An example of the problems ravens can cause is highlighted in one specific story detailed to NFUS by a member. Ravens and crows surrounded a calving cow. The calfs head and feet were out and the calf s head was a mass of blood. The cause was that ravens had eaten right up one side of the calfs tongue.

There you have it.

A local paper, the daily mail and the NFU. You'd be hard pressed to get more unrealiable sources

Seriously though, having googled ravens and lambs I found an articles from may/june 2008 with farmers describing scenes like those from an Alfred Hitchcock movie. I'll accept there is a problem (how bad it is really is the question) and I'm not sure shooting them will help, and posioning is never good news. One of the farmers talks of being 'reduced' to lambing indoors - if thats possible why not do it all the time, it stop the massive() losses they suffe from foxes and sea eagles etc and help prevent the main cause of loss too (exposure).

My biggest concern with all this is the fact they've relaxed the licensing, something that is there for a reason. How long until someone who would have never got a license shoots a 'Raven' that turns out to be a BOP?

[Meta menardi]

Whilst not disagreeing with any of the previous posts (including mine ), the prospect of lambing indoors is not without problems. A friend of mine used to shepherd 1000 ewes, I have lambed 200 ewe flocks, the infection build up can be a real problem, the space is not inconsiderable, it is not that simple. Hill flocks don't warrant the expenditure, but if any of us want to chip in to keep the countryside, especially the uplands, the way they are, lets get some organisation started.

A well managed flock will lamb in about 6 weeks (the majority), and very often be looked after by one person.

I had a week at Arnside this Autumn, and the Ravens flying over were delightful.

[lovfinion]

Originally Posted by Ukwildlifeo

A local paper, the daily mail and the NFU. You'd be hard pressed to get more unrealiable sources

Seriously though, having googled ravens and lambs I found an articles from may/june 2008 with farmers describing scenes like those from an Alfred Hitchcock movie. I'll accept there is a problem (how bad it is really is the question) and I'm not sure shooting them will help, and posioning is never good news. One of the farmers talks of being 'reduced' to lambing indoors - if thats possible why not do it all the time, it stop the massive() losses they suffe from foxes and sea eagles etc and help prevent the main cause of loss too (exposure).

My biggest concern with all this is the fact they've relaxed the licensing, something that is there for a reason. How long until someone who would have never got a license shoots a 'Raven' that turns out to be a BOP?

Agreed these articles/sources are dubious at best, farmers/crofters tend to exaggerate wildly regarding numbers lost and wont be happy till all large raptors and Ravens are exterminated..

Never heard of ravens ganging up to slaughter countless lambs & even attacking calfs before, sounds like the realms of fantasy to me (not that it's possible but the sheer numbers of livestock lost) or have ravens recently got together to formulate these vicious episodes?

It's always the same with man, get rid of any threat by extermination... large predator be it mammal or Bird have been driven out of the UK before, infact all large predators are lost, now it's the turn of Birds.. surprised Golden Eagles haven't been accused of anything recently..

[Lance Morgan]

I've never heard such a load of tosh. Of course Ravens are our biggest corvid and will feed on carrion including afterbirth etc. Bring your sheep in for lambing or on high ground you can expect losses.

[Gill Catton]

Ravens will work as a team or a pair, and to our eyes their ways of obtaining food can seem very cruel but they are just doing what they can to survive. Raven numbers have actually increased around me in recent years and perhaps they have in other areas too (though I think on a national scale population trends are considered uncertain)- I can imagine they might become a problem on a localised scale from time to time. I don't think any widespread extermination has been sanctioned perhaps just that instead of having to obtain a licence (which may take weeks by which time your lambing is mostly over and Raven have already had their impact) to still having to meet the terms of the licence but not actually having to obtain a paper licence as is the situation with crows and rooks in England.

Perhaps I have mis-interpreted it?

[The Woodman]

You’re right Gill. They do operate in pairs and larger groups especially in the spring. I’ve also seen more ravens in the last couple of years but that could be to do with living on their flight path to their feeding grounds around Morecambe Bay.

There is currently a roost seven miles from where I live with about ninety birds congregating nightly, a splendid sight.

Saw two pairs commuting this afternoon over the house, alerted by that wonderful call. Perhaps that’s why I notice them over and above most other birds in the air – the call –heard from a good distance away and guaranteed to get the neck bending!

This topic has got me thinking. Due to the variance of views expressed here, I’ve had a look at a couple of sources of information and copied some short excerpts here.

Macpherson says in his Fauna of Lakeland (1892) “This carnivorous fowl is a great enemy to the lambs of these solitudes” and then goes into great detail of the bounties paid for birds killed. Greystoke Parish churchwarden’s records payment for 966 Ravens taken between 1752 and 1842. Many payments were for young birds taken from the nest, the easiest method of making 2d at that time.
So, it’s not a recent phenomenon.

The following notes have been lifted from the annual Birds and Wildlife in Cumbria publication.

2001 Two roosts, each holding over 200 birds, were present in the southern Lake District.
2002 An interesting record concerns a “gang raid” by at least six Ravens on a rookery at Blenkarn, with young seen to be taken.
2003 Seven feeding on a sheep carcass in the Gosforth area. Eleven on a sheep carcass on 1st September near Shap.
2004 Nine birds feeding on dead sheep in Sandersons Gill. Six feeding on a dead sheep at Urswick Tarn.
2005 …, though a Buzzard worming in an intake at High Bethecar had to put up with eight birds in close attendance.
2006 A remarkable flock of 82 foraging birds on Long Brow, Blencathra on 28th June had risen to 143 by 4th July. A Roe Deer killed on the road at Broughton Mills attracted nine birds on 26th December.
None of the above records mentions killing specifically but rather carrion eating.

The Breeding Birds of Cumbria record a 17% 10 km square increase over 30 years and the final paragraph for the species notes
“despite persistent persecution in some areas, there appears to be little threat to the Raven’s future in Cumbria at the present time, though any increase in disturbance could pose problems. Dare (1986) considered that future trends in population size and breeding success were likely to be influenced by food availability; more rapid removal of carcasses by farmers and lower stocking levels in the wake of foot and mouth disease could reduce the amount of sheep carrion available for this most regal of birds.

A slight tangent to the theme of the thread, I know, but the apparently gruesome lamb predation may have been caused by legislation driven carcass removal depriving the birds of a traditional food supply and possibly lower head numbers per acreage and the resultant natural ovine mortalities.

[aeshna5]

When a pair of Ravens turned up at Brownsea Island they worked as a pair to attack the Little Egret nests, but these latter birds then deserted the island. This is nature + both are native species.

[Gill Catton]

it is considered in my book that they have almost evolved to live alongside hunters such as wolves and indeed man as they recognise that these better predators are likely result in dead animals that are torn open that they can actually then feed from and they are more likely to be able to eat fresh meat this way too. The author actually lost a captive raven to starvation when he left them in the care of someone else. A calf carcass had been provided but not properly cut open so the birds were unable to feed despite the presnce of the carcass.


In the US in yellowstone I think it was for example more wolf kills are made in the company or ravens than not, it is thought that ravens may even indicate to hunters where prey animals are certainly many tribes of people believe this saying that ravens dip a wing in mid-flight when they are approaching prey as an indicator though the author has only witnessed this once.

There is a story (again in America) where a woman chopping wood in the forest was engrossed in her work and only looked up when she was disturbed by a raven shouting from a tree, when she looked up she saw a mountain lion sneaking up on her and was able to scare it off once it had lost the element of suprise. Many interpreted this as the raven saving her, but actually it may have been the raven indicating to the lion that she was there (as prey).

They really are fascinating animals just so intelligent with seemingly many behavioural traits that they share with humans. Except they are better birders able to tell species apart from two miles away that an experianced birder struggles with even when almost overhead.

I can strongly recommend this book
Mind of the Raven: Investigations and Adventures with Wolf-Birds (P.S.) (Paperback)
by Bernd Heinrich (Author)