"Rules on killing ravens relaxed"

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by diggleken

they sure are clever birds -most corvids seem to be - in the canadian rockies they get very very close (plus Clarkes nutcrackers), quite disconcerting for such a large bird with such a vicious beak, but I love em - still dont think there should be any cull in spite of some damage done - surely its acceptable to take some hits with lambs. It goes with the territory as a hill farmer.
Ken

but I think that may be what it comes down to, if you lose a significant percentage of your stock and therefore livelyhood to ravens you're going to want to do something about it so you can feed your family?

Doubtless there are some farmers who'd want them gone even if it was only one lamb a year - even though 30 drown in streams but I'd have thought most would only want them removed or numbers reduced if it was severly hurting their pocket?

maybe I'm being too naive?

[Meta menardi]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

but I think that may be what it comes down to, if you lose a significant percentage of your stock and therefore livelyhood to ravens you're going to want to do something about it so you can feed your family?

Doubtless there are some farmers who'd want them gone even if it was only one lamb a year - even though 30 drown in streams but I'd have thought most would only want them removed or numbers reduced if it was severly hurting their pocket?

maybe I'm being too naive?

I think you have it about right. I wonder if Raven feeding stations could help to lower the pressure in areas where there is a problem? Most lambing seasons produce carcases, at the moment they cannot be buried, they can't be left and they can't go to the hunt. Perhaps a bit of thought could get some kind of compromise. I certainly think control by shooting could be very difficult, poisoning must be completely unacceptable.

I only suggest the lamb carcase as it is a resource of sorts, but it does get tidied away. What are scavengers to do?

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by Meta menardi

I think you have it about right. I wonder if Raven feeding stations could help to lower the pressure in areas where there is a problem? Most lambing seasons produce carcases, at the moment they cannot be buried, they can't be left and they can't go to the hunt. Perhaps a bit of thought could get some kind of compromise. I certainly think control by shooting could be very difficult, poisoning must be completely unacceptable.

There is a risk that feeding stations encourage more younger birds to stay in an area due to food always being available allowing them to feed when a resident pair is elsewhere - in fact if you kill a resident pair the result may well be more ravens that normal as the pair usually drive all youngersters out of their territory.

a difficult problem for all parties that's for sure

[nightshade]

It is always sad when Corvids and farmers fall out, I can see both sides of this story but will admit my sympathy is with the Raven.

[Meta menardi]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

There is a risk that feeding stations encourage more younger birds to stay in an area due to food always being available allowing them to feed when a resident pair is elsewhere - in fact if you kill a resident pair the result may well be more ravens that normal as the pair usually drive all youngersters out of their territory.

a difficult problem for all parties that's for sure

I appreciate the problems you mention, and of course it could be argued that they will learn that lamb carcases come from live lambs. I suppose it is a problem unlikely to be simply solved.

[The Woodman]

I've always had a niggling concern when issues like this crop up. I once heard a pro hunting spokeswoman defend the "sport" on R4 prior to the Mammal Act by saying, "have you ever seen a flock of hens decimated when the fox has been in the hen hut". Well, the answer's simple -surely -practice good husbandry and shut the hen house door at night.

Is it that simple?

When needs must, a predator will hunt using non regular methods. Owls can hunt in the daytime when they have large broods to feed, vixens take ducks in broad daylight when they have large litters to feed etc., etc.

Man in his wisdom should be able to overcome most husbandry difficulties in relation to predation. On the other hand, intelligent predators will adapt by successful trial and error and behaviours may change. Evolution?

If lamb predation does continue on an unacceptable scale and when all prophylactic measures fail, a mitigation feeding strategy ought to be considered.

[Dogghound]

Its quit simple to ensure pens are predator proof. Its just bad practice and easier to kill them than to keep livestock out of harms way. Lets face it we dont exactly have lots of large predators roaming around, thank god we dont have lions or our farmers would have a much needed reality check.

If lambs are at such risk then why not keep them indoors until they are large enough to cope. Unfortunately one of the niggles of being a farmer is you will loose the odd animal or the odd percentage of the crop but thats life. I didnt manage to get any much needed overtime at work, but I dont go around moaning about it like its the end of the world and thats my livelyhood.

[Jason Green]

Originally Posted by epops

Never read such utter rubbish as said before Bird of Prey will be next

Originally Posted by The Woodman

The subject has nothing to do with BoP control.

The link here I think is that if people see that rules on the persecution of ravens can be 'relaxed', then it'll open the floodgates for some people to try and have equivalent laws around BoP lowered...

Jonnie Hall, NFU Scotland says:

The suffering experienced by animals attacked by groups of ravens was particularly striking, as was the distress it caused to the farmers involved

What about shooting then, haven't they thought about the pain the poor bird would go through, especially if it survived?! I dissagree with shooting as I've said before, there must be other ways.. surely.

[The Woodman]

From The Arran Voice
‘These birds are killers. They are highly intelligent,’ Jim told the Arran Voice. ‘The more leeway they get, the worse it gets ... I’ve had newly born lambs with their guts hanging out, living and still bleating.’ Jim observed the horrific consequences of an attack on one of his calves last year. Unable to suckle its mother for milk, he found the calf had had its tongue pecked out and had to be later put down. He said farmers now often find themselves having to put animals out of their suffering before the vet arrives. 'The bird folk don't accept that this happens,' Jim added. 'Folks get sentimental about birds and badgers. But have a thought for what they leave behind for farmers to deal with.'

FromThe Mail
The worst-hit areas are in Scotland and Wales, but there are also reports of random attacks across the South-West and the Lake District.
The Scottish Isle of Mull has been badly hit, with one farmer losing 20 lambs in a fortnight.
Another, Robert Millar from High Catterdale, Kintyre, said: "We've had 12 to 15 lambs attacked. It's got to the stage where you have to lamb indoors, or you don't stand a chance."
And Jimmy Mills, a farmer from Stratherrick, south of Inverness, has lost seven lambs in just three days: "The lambs are born at 1pm and by four o'clock they've been taken to bits by the ravens," he says.
According to Johnny Hall, of the National Farmers Union of Scotland, it's no longer just lambs: "Raven attacks have become a huge problem across a wide area of the country.
"We have substantial evidence of them attacking adult sheep and calves, too. The attacks are so horrific that it's causing mental suffering to people who find the animals."

NFU Scotland submission
Ravens should be added to SEGEN 2. An example of the problems ravens can cause is highlighted in one specific story detailed to NFUS by a member. Ravens and crows surrounded a calving cow. The calfs head and feet were out and the calf s head was a mass of blood. The cause was that ravens had eaten right up one side of the calfs tongue.

There you have it.

[Dogghound]

I think Robert Miller has got the rite idea lamb indoors. Then keep them in for alittle while then when they are big enough let them out. I take it these are all farmers accounts and not scientific evidence? I dont deny it happens just the way its worded is like its totally decimating them.

P.S Badgers dont kill calves