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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 30-07-2006, 07:43 PM
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Re: Falconry, Good/Bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gill Catton
you stated 'enjoying the flight of the bird can not be dissociated from appreciating the power of an efficient killer'

Surely the examples I put forward suggest that you can enjoy the flight of a bird without needing to appreciate specifically the power of an efficent killer?
It might seem like a small point but there is a big difference here between 'the bird' and 'a bird'.

I think I have already said that I agree with you on this point.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 30-07-2006, 07:45 PM
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Re: Falconry, Good/Bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airehead

Falconry is a blood sport. This is not opinion, it is a fact; despite the occurrence of demos where there is no kill.
I disagree - falconry relates to the keeping and flying of falcons and other birds of prey many falconers keep birds to see them fly, and fly them at lures to exercise them, as well as doing displays. It only becomes a bloodsport when they are flown at live game.

Turning to the cruelty aspect - killing is not in itself cruel - what most people abhore is where killing is drawn out over a period of time making the prey suffer - this is not the case with falconry where most kills are very quick , the impact being sufficient to kill in most cases.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 30-07-2006, 07:53 PM
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Re: Falconry, Good/Bad?

So during falconry a bird kills its prey.

Is that correct?

So what does it do in wildlife?

Where is the sport?
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 30-07-2006, 09:16 PM
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Re: Falconry, Good/Bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eeyore
It only becomes a bloodsport when they are flown at live game. .
Yes, that is what I am talking about

[quote=eeyore]Turning to the cruelty aspect - killing is not in itself cruel - QUOTE]

And again, yes that is what I said.

Eeyore, I really think you are less interested in the subject as a whole that in finding some point to quibble about. At which point, again, you can have the last word if you wish. I have finished with this thread.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 30-07-2006, 09:25 PM
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Re: Falconry, Good/Bad?

[quote=Airehead]Yes, that is what I am talking about

Quote:
Originally Posted by eeyore
Turning to the cruelty aspect - killing is not in itself cruel - QUOTE]

And again, yes that is what I said.

Eeyore, I really think you are less interested in the subject as a whole that in finding some point to quibble about. At which point, again, you can have the last word if you wish. I have finished with this thread.
that isnt what you said - you said that falconry was factually a bloodsport which it isnt and that it was by definition cruel, which again it isnt.

and i could easily say the same about you - after all you are the one who admitted that you are arguing from any point of view, rather than expressing your own opinion, there is no need to get tetchy just because some of us dare to disagree with you - doubtless you will be accusing me of ageism next
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 31-07-2006, 06:11 PM
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Re: Falconry, Good/Bad?

AIRHEAD, in one of your posts you stated that i MUST conclude that falconry is another cruel bloodsport, i started this thread to take everyones points on board and make my own decision, not be told i MUST conclude. As Eeyore stated its cruel if its drawn out and unnecessary. All points taken on board and thought through i have made up my own opinion that Falconry, as a hunting past-time is not cruel so long as the birds consume there prey and don't just leave it lying in the feild. And Falconry in displays ( done properly) and/or flown privately at a lure is also fine. ps, This is my own opinion and i thank everybody for there posts on this thread, bunged them all in my melting pot of a head and came out with the answer. Cheers, Pete
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 14-07-2007, 10:41 AM
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Re: Falconry, Good/Bad?

Ok, Ill try again having typed out a huge post it went walk about!

Firstly a brief introduction, I am a practising falconer based in Cheshire, we fly both longwings (Falcons), Broadwings(Hawks) and Owls.

Having read this thread with interest, I have noticed several inaccuracies, but instead of challenging individuals directly about these I though I would just do a post explain about falconry in general and my views on the subjects raised.

Hopefully it will give you food for thought at least.

The word falconry itself means : Hunting of game with falcons. The art of training falcons for hunting. (It is derived from the french word for falcon)

As has been previously mentioned on this thread the most common BoP (Bird of Prey) being used for falconry in this country is the Harris Hawk, a bird from the Southern States of the USA, in the wild these birds often hunt in family groups and this can also be replicated in captivity, with HH (Harris Hawks) being flown as a "Cast" (A group) Almost without exception now, these birds are all bred in captivity in the UK (Very few, if any birds are imported from America any longer)

A young HH would be taken from its parents (Most HH are parent reared) at about 15/18 weeks of age, to start its life as a Falconers bird (Although those who fly hawks are more correctly known as Austringers) This would then involve "Manning" the bird, which means making it steady on the fist and introducing it all the sights and sounds of the big bad world, much as you would socialise a puppy. From there you would get the bird jumping from its perch to the first for food (Still on its leash) once it is doing this constantly you would then move on getting the bird to "fly" to the fist whilst attached using a line called a creance, once you have the bird flying about 50m to the fist with an instant response, it is time to fly it free! You can usually achieve this with a HH in about 10/14 days. All our birds are flown wearing "telemetry" or radio tracking devices, it is foolish to fly a bird without, as even the best trained HH could decide to go wandering after anything at anytime, when flying free.

Although we aim to hunt, rabbits and pheasant with our HH, and they are very good at it, at the end of the day it is the bird itself that decides what it will chase and on occasions, when the dog has flushed something for the hawk, it is not unusual to see the hawk vanish after a butterfly or a frog! BoP do NOT hunt for fun, they hunt for food, this is the same for them returning to the falconer, they do not do so out of "affection" but do so for food. Successful BoP management is all about weight control.

I did raise a smile with one of the posts, when someone mentioned watching a falconry display and it involved all "foreign" birds EXCEPT the Peregrine x Gyr Hybrid, whilst we all know the Peregrine is native to the UK, the Gyr is not, so technically speaking this is not a British bird and would not occur naturally in the wild, which brings me on to the next point that has been raised in this thread several times - Hybrids!

Well, unlike dogs where you put two breeds together and what comes out is pot luck (I am a professional Gundog Trainer by trade, so know a thing or two about dogs ) You may end up with the worse of both breeds or nothing that resembles either!! In falconry it is totally different. Almost all of the hybrids are produced using AI (Artificial insemination) although depending on what you want, they chicks are still either parent reared or imprinted - imprinting means that you raise them yourself from day one as part of the family, they go everywhere with you 24/7. I will use the Gyr x Pere hybrid as an example as it has already been mentioned by someone on this thread. We fly a male (Tiercel) Gyr x Per hybrid, he flies at 1lb 11oz, he is a big powerful bird and is used to hunt Grouse, Partridge and Ducks. In the wild a Peregrine Tiercel would struggle to consistently take quarry of this size, he would weigh in the region of 1lb 4oz - 1lb 7oz, we all know how fast the wild peregrine is and how agile! add to this combination the Gyr Falcon which is a big and powerful bird and you have the best of both worlds, a large powerful falcon with a tremendous turn of speed, that can either "wait on" which means climb to a great height and stoop down on its prey or can be flown out of the hood from the fist as a pursuit falcon.

There are lots of other hybrids out there, all with their reasons for being produced, but for me to write about each would take an age!

Someone on here voiced their concerns about the risks to native BoP in the UK form all these "foreign" birds, I am a little confused as to what they mean by this, so would be very interested in hearing their concerns.

Whilst I would in no way wish to change someones views on a subject, I would be happy if they would sit and think through what I have written and the reasons behind it, I am happy to expand on anything I have covered and time permitting I would during the coming season offer to anyone who wanted to see a BoP in the field, then they would be more than welcome to accompany me (But be warned my birds do hunt and kill)

Apart from HH, we also fly the Gyr x Per, a kestrel and owls.

Here are a few pics of some of our birds, if you have any questions, please feel free to ask them and hopefully I can answer them (Sorry this post is not as long as the one I lost - but it was quite annoying to lose it!!)























Regards

Mike
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 14-07-2007, 03:23 PM
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Re: Falconry, Good/Bad?

Nice birds.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 18-07-2007, 09:53 PM
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Re: Falconry, Good/Bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airehead View Post
Beg to differ. I think it is seeing the bird kill under their control. Those I have seen carrying up to 5 rabbits and a brace of grouse have certainly been satisfied with the kill.
In any case, enjoying the flight of the bird can not be dissociated from appreciating the power of an efficient killer. I believe this also applies to the audience at a demo even though they may not be aware of the root cause of the pleasure.

This is not a criticism. I am not implying that I think there is anything 'wrong' with the above situation.


i can go hunting with a few harris's and come back with 20+ rabbits and many pheasant yet this is not to say i would not be satisfied if the bird flew well and did not catch anything...
from what your stating it seems you are not a falconer and given your own views as theres. as many do not even fly 'killing machines' but birds that wild eat carrion, so where is it they get there thrill from then... the flights! nothing to do with a kill.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 19-07-2007, 09:22 AM
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Re: Falconry, Good/Bad?

i used to fly a few birds myself i had a buzzard which was unbeliveably lazy also i had apair of barn owls(my particular favorites) a rescued turkmanize eagle owl which my then 10 year old son used to fly a harris hawk which was an excellent hunting bird and highly intellegent which was also a rescue bird because the owner got fed up with it ! I had to getrid of all my bird due to work commitments i gave them all to a mate who loves falconry so i am still able to see and occasionally have the odd day with them.
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