Ethical dilemma - hand-taming young robins

[Tursiops]

In answer to query on a gardening forum I've recently posted instructions on how to hand-tame a juvenile robin. I've been asked if encouraging a bird to lose its fear of humans wouldn't make it more vulnerable. My personal feeling is no, as the principal threats to young robins, in a garden environment, come from predators that are likely to be deterred by the presence of humans, rather than from humans, but I'd like to know what other people on WAB think about the ethics of hand-taming garden birds.

Tursiops

[eeyore]

I agree with you up to a point on the predators thing but there are other considerations such as:
what happens to the bird if the tamer movers away as presumably they will have become its prime source of food,
what happens if it meets some less well intentioned people who might think it funny to do it harm
Will the taming also have altered its behaviour so much that it finds it dificult to interact with other robins, get a mate etc.
And finally do we have the ethical right to interfere in nature in this way ?

Personally I wouldnt unless it was absolutely necessary to save the creatures life.

[henrya]

You only have to look at birds in cities to get the impression that for some species at least, hand taming doesn't affect their ability to breed (especially Feral Pigeons!). On the other hand, one of the early bird books I read related the tale of a Robin that was hand-tamed to eat pieces of cheese, and ended up in a mouse-trap!

henrya

[Tursiops]

Originally Posted by eeyore

what happens to the bird if the tamer movers away as presumably they will have become its prime source of food,
And finally do we have the ethical right to interfere in nature in this way ?

OK, but surely those reservations must equally apply to the feeding of any wild bird; and not just garden birds, but also e.g. kite feeding-stations, and wildfowl at places like Slimbridge?
And what about the increasingly common practice of feeding wild mammals in gardens e.g. foxes/Hedgehogs/Pine Martens etc.?

Originally Posted by eeyore

what happens if it meets some less well intentioned people who might think it funny to do it harm.

Fair point, but I still have sufficient faith in human nature to believe such people, while they do exist, are thankfully few and far between, and a robin is as vulnerable to an air rifle at twenty yards as it is at twenty feet.

Originally Posted by eeyore

Will the taming also have altered its behaviour so much that it finds it dificult to interact with other robins, get a mate etc.

Is this really likely? I'm not talking about hand-rearing a young bird, which can have that effect, just providing a wild bird with different food source that happens to be a human hand. I don't see how that could affect behaviour in the way you suggest.

Keep it coming
T

[Tursiops]

Originally Posted by Tursiops

Is this really likely? I'm not talking about hand-rearing a young bird, which can have that effect, just providing a wild bird with different food source that happens to be a human hand. I don't see how that could affect behaviour in the way you suggest.

In fact, I would have thought that providing a regular food supply like this would increase the chances of mating/ breeding success

[Tursiops]

Originally Posted by henrya

On the other hand, one of the early bird books I read related the tale of a Robin that was hand-tamed to eat pieces of cheese, and ended up in a mouse-trap!

henrya

Ouch! but surely equally likely to happen to a bird accustomed to taking cheese from a bird table? (Apparently cheese isn't the best mousetrap bait: fruit-and-nut chocolate is more effective, I'm told)

[matt_xyz]

I'm not quite sure why you would want to hand tame a wild bird like this. I would ask one question: Is it in the bird's best interests? I can't really see that it is. Yes, we intervene in other ways such a providing bird feeders but that is unequivocally in the birds' best interests. It helps them to survive. Feed the birds by all means but I see no need for hand taming.

Matt

[henrya]

Quote
Ouch! but surely equally likely to happen to a bird accustomed to taking cheese from a bird table?
Endquote

True enough.

Quote
(Apparently cheese isn't the best mousetrap bait: fruit-and-nut chocolate is more effective, I'm told)
Endquote

Or peanut butter - but to be honest, mice will eat anything they can get their teeth into, so I'm not sure it matters too much what you use as bait!

Quote
Yes, we intervene in other ways such a providing bird feeders but that is unequivocally in the birds' best interests. It helps them to survive.
Endquote

I've heard it argued that feeding the birds helps the weak genes survive, which is not good for the species. But I still feed them, as I'm not persuaded.

henrya

henrya

[Ollie]

I can see all the points for and against this, but my personal opinion is if a Robin was hand tame would it not be more vunerable to predators. By predators I mean the local cat population. If a Robin overcomes it's natural fear of human beings, I would have thought that to some extent it would also be less on guard to the local cats and anyone wishing it any harm for that matter.
Roger

[Tursiops]

Originally Posted by Ollie

If a Robin overcomes it's natural fear of human beings, I would have thought that to some extent it would also be less on guard to the local cats Roger

I still don't see how this follows. Robins are confiding in nature because, as woodland birds, they evolved to follow large herbivores like Wild Boar as they foraged on the forest floor, disturbing insects etc. which the birds then caught, similar to the way cattle egrets follow large grazers on the African plains. Predation by small bird-hunters would be just as much a threat in the forest as it is in a garden.

Human beings now perform the same function as forest herbivores, but in an urban context. Just because a robin takes the next step from feeding on the ground a few feet away from you, to feeding from your hand, doesn't mean they are going to be any less wary with regard to potential predators from an entirely different species. I certainly wouldn't advocate hand-taming birds at a location where cats were a serious problem, but I wouldn't advocate any feeding of wild birds at all, under such circumstances .

Originally Posted by Ollie

and anyone wishing it any harm for that matter.

see post #4

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by matt_xyz

I'm not quite sure why you would want to hand tame a wild bird like this. I would ask one question: Is it in the bird's best interests? I can't really see that it is. Yes, we intervene in other ways such a providing bird feeders but that is unequivocally in the birds' best interests. It helps them to survive. Feed the birds by all means but I see no need for hand taming.

Matt

I'm still with matt on this, why do you want to do it ? isnt it enough to feed and admire them.

I also still say that by doing this you are making it very vulnerable to the sort of idiotic behaviour that is sadly seen everday. Yes a bird is always vulnerable to an air rifle but a hand tamed bird is also vulnerable to being imprisoned without food, poisoned, hit with hard objects, stuck to sticky substances, etc etc

You may think that this is unlikely, but that requires a touching faith in human nature which I have lost the hard way - I could tell you some really sickening things that I have seen done to wildlife which got a bit too near to some lout. For instance I once knew a swan that had been hand tamed - it eventually wound up being nailed to a tree - alive. I could go on ad nauseum but I dont want to upset people by with these highly distasteful tales.

Bottom line - there is no good reason to hand tame this bird, so dont do it.

[Tursiops]

OK it's 4.30 on Friday afternoon and I'm about to go home for the weekend. I'm not online at home, so I won't be able to return to this until Monday. I'm enjoying the debate, despite the overwhelmingly negative tenor of your comments, but so far, all I've had are opinions (albeit intelligent opinions) - does nobody have any facts? I welcome any further contributions, and when I reply to the post on Gardeners Corner, I'll post a link to this thread and allow the OP to make up their own mind.

Have good weekends
Tursiops

[eeyore]

No offence mate but I think you will find that my post above does contain facts , evidence in fact that habituating wild birds to close human contact aint a good idea.

I could also tell you about a starling which had its tail stapled down to a table, a pigeon doused in lighter fluid and set alight, swans doused in hot treacle, or a robin found nearly starved after a charming individual shut it in a biscuit tin, or twenty or thirty similar tales.

taming a bird to feed from the hand is a charming idea and in an ideal world might be okay, but this world of ours is not ideal and doing this is not in the birds best interests - fact !

[Lincs Yellowbelly]

The first question i would ask in this debate is WHY??

Why is it nesseccery to hand tame Robins in the first instance? Robin are wild birds and as a result should stay that way IMO, Robin are very brave at this time of the year and i've had them land on me whilst fishing at breeding times, but as i've already said i don't see any situation where taming a wild robin is needed? It strikes me that the only one who will benifit is the person, and we should be looking at what will benifit the Robin

[eeyore]

well said Linc, I cant think of a good reason either

[nightshade]

I have hand fed a number of birds and my experience is they would come to me and no one else All have "gone wild" and although they tolerate me they do not feed from the hand again.The local garden centre has a number of feeding stations around and although the place is thronging the birds seem quite at ease but again they allow no one too close
The resturant at the Gardens of Heligan also have birds that are tame enough to hand feed but they still are wild birds making a living

[eeyore]

I hear what you are saying nightshade but I still havent heard a good reason why people should do this - even if there is only a slight chance of bad things (such as those outlined above) happening as a result of a bird being hand tamed why take the risk - cant honestly see it being in the birds best interest.

[Tursiops]

Well, I'm glad the response hasn't been totally negative, but as some serious questions have been raised about the ethics, perhps its not a course of action I should recommend. I shall inform the OP accordingly.

Originally Posted by eeyore

No offence mate but I think you will find that my post above does contain facts , evidence in fact that habituating wild birds to close human contact aint a good idea.

I could also tell you about a starling which had its tail stapled down to a table, a pigeon doused in lighter fluid and set alight, swans doused in hot treacle, or a robin found nearly starved after a charming individual shut it in a biscuit tin, or twenty or thirty similar tales.

With all due respect to yourself, anecdotal evidence is not scientific evidence, which is what I was hoping for, perhaps unrealistically. Apologies if that was unclear.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Tursiops

Well, I'm glad the response hasn't been totally negative, but as some serious questions have been raised about the ethics, perhps its not a course of action I should recommend. I shall inform the OP accordingly.

With all due respect to yourself, anecdotal evidence is not scientific evidence, which is what I was hoping for, perhaps unrealistically. Apologies if that was unclear.

Fair enough - though you are always going to gather only annectdotal evidence from forums because that is what they are - essentially a collection of annectdotes. Although many of the incidents mentioned above resulted in animal cruelty cases taken by either RSPB or RSPCA or Police WLOs - so a decent search of the records (which I have neither time or inclination for) would produce back up documentary evidence - which moves the quality of evidence from anectodatal to factual.

I have spoken to a freind who does research at the BTO and he says that "neither they or the RSPB have ever researched the issue in depth but as they both recomend a code where the interests of the bird are paramount they generally recomend against hand taming as a general practice"