Best time to spot a Kingfisher

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by gobbiner

Who polices this so called law i see many court proceedings in the papers, but ive never seen one of a person being find for taking a photo of a Kingfisher

Natural England administer the licences - but as to the offence of disturbing as schedule one bird without a licence that would be one for either the police WLO or RSPB investigations - and it does happen.

and btw its not a so called law its an actual one Wildlife and countryside act 1981 as ammended by the CRoW act 2000.

[Endrick]

Kingfishers are fairly common birds here and a thing I've noticed about them is that they are the most forgiving of birds if you are sitting still. Many creatures are of course but kingfishers are exceptional in this regard. A couple of years ago our grizzly veterans rowing crew were turning the 60ft long boat and had a kingfisher watching the process with interest from a distance of a few feet. At one point we could have touched the bird with our oars. I've also had them approach very close indeed while sitting on the riverbank of my local river. They're quite happy to visit you but they don't like you visiting them.

My view on anyone photographing birds on the nest (schedule 1 licence holder or not - it makes no difference except, possibly, in law) is that only in the most exceptional locations or circumstances should this happen.

[nigel_b]

Originally Posted by Endrick

Kingfishers are fairly common birds here and a thing I've noticed about them is that they are the most forgiving of birds if you are sitting still. Many creatures are of course but kingfishers are exceptional in this regard. A couple of years ago our grizzly veterans rowing crew were turning the 60ft long boat and had a kingfisher watching the process with interest from a distance of a few feet. At one point we could have touched the bird with our oars. I've also had them approach very close indeed while sitting on the riverbank of my local river. They're quite happy to visit you but they don't like you visiting them.

My view on anyone photographing birds on the nest (schedule 1 licence holder or not - it makes no difference except, possibly, in law) is that only in the most exceptional locations or circumstances should this happen.

(My emphasis) Well said and whole-heartedly agree.

Thanks also for your insight on their behaviour which, now I come to think about it, fits well with what I have observed.

I remember sitting quietly on the river bank for an hour or so waiting but nothing happened, trudging back to the car and loading everything in the back, driving away over a little pack-horse bridge (Sturminster Marshall in Dorset) only to see a kingfisher sitting on a bridge parapet next to the road. I pulled the car up alongside and it was about 3 foot from the car, nonchalantly peering into the water below and completely ignoring me.

[KentYeti]

Originally Posted by eeyore

Natural England administer the licences - but as to the offence of disturbing as schedule one bird without a licence that would be one for either the police WLO or RSPB investigations - and it does happen.

and btw its not a so called law its an actual one Wildlife and countryside act 1981 as ammended by the CRoW act 2000.

I'll have to wait wait and see if the RSPB prosecute me for viewing and taking photos of the nesting Kingfishers on the sandbanks they have set up on the RSPB Reserve at Rye Meads. Where they have set up hides close by to allow me to watch and photograph them, with the words, "Look out for the beautiful Kingfishers, as they raise a family" in the leaflet they gave me on arrival there last week. And where, in the Visitor Center, after I had explained the purpose of my visit, the staff pointed to the web cam showing a Kingfisher outside it's nest and suggested I hurry down to the hide so I could photograph it.

With a similar, (but clearly not exactly the same), type of situation at Oare Marshes with the Avocets and Kent Widlife Trust.

(Humour guys, humour!).

I am still trying to keep some degree of open mindness on this whole matter and am still developing a policy to take me forward. The best words I have seen relative to the Act come from the Welsh Assembly in 2009. They were not used specifically in regard to Photography Licences, but in respect of the General Licence question. I have taken it a bit out of context, but to me it seems to cover the whole situation of being able to watch and photograph Schedule 1 birds, not just Licensing.

"In meeting our obligations we seek to strike a balance that ensures the protection of species and sites whilst reducing any unnecessary burdens on those we regulate."

I am researching now to try and determine whether the Green and White papers that preceeded the Act, ( I am assuming that would have happened!), plus any subsequent Parliamentary Discussion, gives any hint as the English Parliament having expressed similar views regarding the actual purpose of the Act. i.e Whether it was ever intended to forbid totally the viewing and photography, ( I see both activities as similar: I doubt the birds can differentiate between someone watching them holding binos or a scope, from someone holding a camera), of nesting Schedule 1 birds to other than a very select and very limited number of people to whom a Licence may be granted.

If that was ever the intention then clearly the RSPB would need to consider shutting down two of the hides at Rye Meads. And Kent Wildlife Trust would need to consider requesting the shutting down of several public footpaths and a public road at Oare. As that would be the only way to stop anyone viewing etc the significant number of nesting Avocets that have been closely visible from public access points all around the small East Flood.

For the time being I feel comfortable following the advice I have been given by Natural England. As well as taking great care during my viewing and photography. I will also not extend the number of nesting Schedule 1 bird sites I visit, (Rye Meads and Oare), until I am certain that should such a chance ever present itself again, (unlikley), I am not behaving with any degree of recklessness, and, always with zero intention of causing disturbance, not causing any noticeable actual disturbance to the subjects I am viewing and photographing.

Others here clearly have different views. And I very much respect those views and their right to hold and act upon them.

Bryan

[RoyW]

Originally Posted by KentYeti

I'll have to wait wait and see if the RSPB prosecute me for viewing and taking photos of the nesting Kingfishers on the sandbanks they have set up on the RSPB Reserve at Rye Meads. Where they have set up hides close by to allow me to watch and photograph them, with the words, "Look out for the beautiful Kingfishers, as they raise a family" in the leaflet they gave me on arrival there last week. And where, in the Visitor Center, after I had explained the purpose of my visit, the staff pointed to the web cam showing a Kingfisher outside it's nest and suggested I hurry down to the hide so I could photograph it....

I'm certain that Bryan is well aware that photography of Kingfishers and Avocets in the situations that he has described here (at Rye Meads and Oare Marshes), then there will be no problem.

Just to try and make it clear for anyone else:
Photography from an established public hide or viewpoint where people already hang around for long periods will not cause any problems if you do not try and go any closer or move to a position nearby that is not so well used.
In any other situation, including footpaths/roads which may be well used but where people do not normally linger in the area where the birds are present, it is possible that a photographer may cause additional disturbance - potentially putting the birds at risk and/or falling foul of the protection laws.

The "disturbance" allowed by schedule one licences acknowledges the fact that a photographer who has approached close enough for worthwhile photographs will almost certainly be within the limits of the birds "comfort zone" - anyone who is issued a licence is expected to recognise this and know how to keep the disturbance to an absolute minimum.

Stick to public hides and you will not be causing any disturbance so there is nothing to worry about, including the birds welfare (assuming that you know how to behave in a hide!)
On the otherhand, don't assume that just because a well used path passes close to a nest there will not be any problems caused if you stay on the path (and going back to an earlier example: yes a family could cause as much disturbance by choosing to stop for a picnic near the nest, but IMO it is far worse if the disturbance is caused by a photographer who is ignorant of the potential harm that he/she is causing his/her chosen subject).

Originally Posted by KentYeti

I am still trying to keep some degree of open mindness on this whole matter and am still developing a policy to take me forward. The best words I have seen relative to the Act come from the Welsh Assembly in 2009. They were not used specifically in regard to Photography Licences, but in respect of the General Licence question. I have taken it a bit out of context, but to me it seems to cover the whole situation of being able to watch and photograph Schedule 1 birds, not just Licensing.

"In meeting our obligations we seek to strike a balance that ensures the protection of species and sites whilst reducing any unnecessary burdens on those we regulate."

I am researching now to try and determine whether the Green and White papers that preceeded the Act, ( I am assuming that would have happened!), plus any subsequent Parliamentary Discussion, gives any hint as the English Parliament having expressed similar views regarding the actual purpose of the Act. i.e Whether it was ever intended to forbid totally the viewing and photography, ( I see both activities as similar: I doubt the birds can differentiate between someone watching them holding binos or a scope, from someone holding a camera), of nesting Schedule 1 birds to other than a very select and very limited number of people to whom a Licence may be granted.

If that was ever the intention then clearly the RSPB would need to consider shutting down two of the hides at Rye Meads. And Kent Wildlife Trust would need to consider requesting the shutting down of several public footpaths and a public road at Oare. As that would be the only way to stop anyone viewing etc the significant number of nesting Avocets that have been closely visible from public access points all around the small East Flood.

For the time being I feel comfortable following the advice I have been given by Natural England. As well as taking great care during my viewing and photography. I will also not extend the number of nesting Schedule 1 bird sites I visit, (Rye Meads and Oare), until I am certain that should such a chance ever present itself again, (unlikley), I am not behaving with any degree of recklessness, and, always with zero intention of causing disturbance, not causing any noticeable actual disturbance to the subjects I am viewing and photographing.

Others here clearly have different views. And I very much respect those views and their right to hold and act upon them.

The purpose of the act is to protect scarce breeding birds from unnecessary levels of disturbance, nothing more, nothing less.
There is no intention to prevent anyone from watching or photographing the species concerned - just to ensure that the birds welfare comes first.

Remaining close to the nest or young of breeding birds causes disturbance, and in the eyes of the law it is irrelevant whether this disturbance is caused by photographers, bird watchers, or members of the public - but photographers are perhaps far more likely to remain for longer (it can take several hours, even several days to get satisfactory shots, as you well know).
As I hoped that I had made clear in previous posts, photography from well used established hides is not likely to cause any harm - the birds have chosen to nest there so have accepted the level of disturbance. It would be unlkely for reserves to close hides in such a situation - but they would probably close a little used hide if (eg). Kingfishers chose to nest in front of it, because the attraction of the Kingfishers would mean the hide became more popular and therefore there would be more disturbance than there was when the birds started nesting.
Also I have previously tried to explain, footpaths are not necessarily a problem if people keep moving (the birds will visit the nest between people passing by), but if people linger close to the nest site they may well stay away waiting for them to move on - so photography from a public footpath can increase disturbance beyond use of the footpath to get from A to B.
There may be no need to close the footpath, but this does not mean that photography is automatically OK.

Originally Posted by KentYeti

(Humour guys, humour!).

??????
Trying to get people to explain the potential welfare issues that can adversely affect scarce breeding birds isn't really a subject that I'd consider funny.



Anyway, in your case Bryan, your photography of Kingfishers and Avocets at Rye Meads and Oare Marshes does not need a licence, and shouldn't cause any harm at all to the birds - so no problems with what you are doing there!

[KentYeti]

Originally Posted by RoyW

............... ??????
Trying to get people to explain the potential welfare issues that can adversely affect scarce breeding birds isn't really a subject that I'd consider funny.

Roy,

Many of your points are well made.

But the humour that I have retained despite all that life has thrown at me, is such that sometimes I stand back from issues I get heavily involved in and look for a funny side. I do that not as a jest at the subject concerned, or in this case, at the welfare of the birds. But in a comparsion with what I personally feel are the really serious issues in the word today. Like the fact that so many young children die in the world every day simply from the lack of decent drinking water.

That doesn't mean I don't consider the welfare of any of God's other creatures important. Because I do. But I try to retain a sense of perspective if I can remind myself of what I see as the correct order of things. Perversley, humour helps me do that.

You may also be intertested to know that I have decided I will not re-visit a certain public hide in the Rye Harbour Reserve during the breeeding season as I feel it is not a well used hide. And was overlooking a pair of breeding Avocets. Who may well not be used to human activities because they are low there.

I do not feel those birds may be covered by this part of Natural England's e mail to me, i.e:-

"Where birds are nesting in a public place or in front of a permanent hide and are acclimatised to the presence of people then the act of taking pictures does not alter behaviour then a licence is not required."

Back to Kingfishers and those trying to find a legitimate place to watch them.

It was a no show at the Reedbed hide in Stodmarsh yesterday. He knew how to cut through all this debate. Just fish somewhere he couldn't be seen! I hope that dosn't catch on, and I will have another attempt soon if this summer lasts more than 36 hours..............

Bryan