What sort of thinking is this?

[MalcolmX]

i always shudder when i read articles like this as i know it does harm to the shooting fraternity and portrays them as ignorant bigots. i have been a shooter and raiser of pheasants for a period of about 20 years and i can say that not one of the birds listed or most of the mammals ever made any difference to the bag on my shoot . the worst killer of young birds was the weather thunderstorms often killed 10% of the birds ,foxes accounted for a significant number as well .i was always happy to see any other bird species on my shoot. i have given up shooting now as the cost is prohibitive and as i keep birds i would rather watch them than kill them .
keepers on grouse moors have a different problem as they cannot raise chicks as pheasant and partridge shots can ,however given the limited number of raptors and the large number of grouse pairs i cannot believe they need to eliminate birds of prey on the moors , i suspect that poor keepers use them as an excuse for bad management when bags are low

[John]

Originally Posted by MALCOLMX

i always shudder when i read articles like this as i know it does harm to the shooting fraternity and portrays them as ignorant bigots. i have been a shooter and raiser of pheasants for a period of about 20 years and i can say that not one of the birds listed or most of the mammals ever made any difference to the bag on my shoot . the worst killer of young birds was the weather thunderstorms often killed 10% of the birds ,foxes accounted for a significant number as well .i was always happy to see any other bird species on my shoot. i have given up shooting now as the cost is prohibitive and as i keep birds i would rather watch them than kill them .
keepers on grouse moors have a different problem as they cannot raise chicks as pheasant and partridge shots can ,however given the limited number of raptors and the large number of grouse pairs i cannot believe they need to eliminate birds of prey on the moors , i suspect that poor keepers use them as an excuse for bad management when bags are low

Thank you for the above Malcolm. How you see it is how the majority of Bird and Wildlife lovers see it.

I have to thank some of these Pheasant shoots in maintaining a sustained and healthily managed habitat that must have gone a huge way in saving a lot of our song bird numbers. If those managed shots weren't there I dread to think what would have happened to both the land and the living things that inhabited it.

John

[Brains]

Originally Posted by MALCOLMX

i always shudder when i read articles like this as i know it does harm to the shooting fraternity and portrays them as ignorant bigots. i have been a shooter and raiser of pheasants for a period of about 20 years and i can say that not one of the birds listed or most of the mammals ever made any difference to the bag on my shoot .... i cannot believe they need to eliminate birds of prey on the moors , i suspect that poor keepers use them as an excuse for bad management when bags are low

Hi MalcolmX

It's refreshing to hear such comments from someone who shoots ... or at least used to. In my opinion, raptors and predators generally have been used as scapegoats for declining bags for years and years, when the problems are really much more long-term (over-grazing of moorland, forrestry, simple economics). I like to think that there were many more shooters of your ilk rather than those who put together the article ... altough I have my doubts

Brains

[PhilBriggs]

Originally Posted by Brains

Hi MalcolmX

It's refreshing to hear such comments from someone who shoots ... or at least used to. In my opinion, raptors and predators generally have been used as scapegoats for declining bags for years and years, when the problems are really much more long-term (over-grazing of moorland, forrestry, simple economics). I like to think that there were many more shooters of your ilk rather than those who put together the article ... altough I have my doubts

Brains

Brains has hit the nail on the head. Although the gamekeepers do have a harder job these days and its there livelihood were talking about, they have to accept responsibility for previous miss management, over grazing and lack of control of the heather beetle. Most of the wildlife cases I deal with involve some form of bird of prey persecution. Some keepers and landowners constantly blame the birds for the lack of grouse rather than looking inwardly.
Allot of money each year is generated by these shoots, mainly for the landowners pocket. What also is not made common knowledge is that also millions of pounds is given in grant aid to these landowners for heather/species regeneration etc.
One of the estates in my area killed six pairs of hen harrier last year along with several buzzards poisoned and a short-eared owl shot. I’ve managed to take one keeper to trial whom was fined £500 pounds and his licence revoked for a short period which he now has back. The estate has another five keepers whom are all as bad, god knows how many other birds they have killed. We are working very with RSPB and local raptor study groups to help combat this problem but its very hard to cover such vast areas and gain enough evidence for court. It also doesn’t help that allot of these landowners are very powerful and influential people and seem to be able to pull allot of political strings. Why do you think the fox-hunting bill both here and in England and Wales is such a waste of time and has changed nothing.

And black grouse still unfortunately can be classed as game.

Phil

[RobF]

Agreed Phil, persecution of raptors is the great stumbling block which effectively counteracts any good that grouse moor management does for conservation.

Just a couple of points:

Very few Black Grouse are shot annually, the healthiest populations of Black Grouse are on keepered estates.

I'm not sure how heather beetle can be controlled?

Rob

[John]

Originally Posted by RobF

the healthiest populations of Black Grouse are on keepered estates.

Rob

Can't agree with that Rob. I know quite a few healthy populations that are not on keepered sites.

John

[RobF]

Originally Posted by John

Can't agree with that Rob. I know quite a few healthy populations that are not on keepered sites.

John

I'm thinking in the North Pennine context, but am pretty sure that the majority of UK BG populations have some form of fox control during critical times in the breeding cycle.

Rob

[John]

Originally Posted by RobF

I'm thinking in the North Pennine context, but am pretty sure that the majority of UK BG populations have some form of fox control during critical times in the breeding cycle.

Rob

You may well be right Rob. I think I took the wrong meaning from your earlier post as I thought you were referring to managed site's. I see where your coming from know.

John

[PhilBriggs]

Rob
On speaking to local keepers, the only way to control the beetle is by effective burning each year. The weather also plays a big part. We don't get as cold winters as we used to get so the beetle larvae appear to survive which obviously result in larger numbers. Unfortunately its the same with the Scottish midge, I’m getting bit earlier and earlier each year.

Your correct with regards the BG though. You usually find that some sort of land management has been required to help support them due to habitat loss etc, and some folk still take pleasure in shooting them for some strange reason. Maybe they need to watch them lek as 5.00 in the morning to really appreciate these birds.

Phil