Does Space really go on forever?

[Ipso Facto]

Originally Posted by Adam Cheeseman

What about the atheists?

Cheers,

Adam

? What about atheists? I'm not sure that I understand the question.

Is this a question about whether atheists have a right to exist? If it is, and in my opinion, of course they do: I have a number of friends who are informed atheists and we co-exist peacefully! We have some great debates as we test each others views; a process that helps all of us deepen our individual understanding.

Is their anything wrong with their beliefs? Haven't we all simply assessed the evidence and reached different conclusions. Atheism doesn't automatically mean that people of that persuation are automatically bad people and shouldn't be listened to no more than those with Christian beliefs are automatically all good people (take Paisley for example - a firm Christian whose views I believe are way off piste and hard to justify).

I know of someone who uses the strap line "Blowing out the other persons candle doesn't make yours shine brighter" and I think that there is a lot of truth in that. Often it is what you do with your life rather than what you believe that matters - whether we like it or not, we are all in this together.

Or is this a question of whether atheists can or should read scriptural texts for inspiration to which I would say, "Why not?". It is possible and you don't have to bring God into it, you just need an open mind: many passages are written in such a way that they can be used in "humanistic" meditation (if there is such a thing). I personally use biblical texts, texts from the Koran and the writings of Buddha amongst others.

So, what about atheists and shall we get back to the limits of the space/time continuum?

[Adam Cheeseman]

I blame the Popular People's Front..........Splitters!


Cheers,

Adam

[Adam Cheeseman]

[quote=Ipso Facto;194290]? What about atheists? I'm not sure that I understand the question.


My open question was about posting #97 which mentions the creation of the universe from a Christian viewpoint referencing the fact The Bible doesn't use terms ambiguous with other religions.

My point being that many atheists accept the Big Bang Theory readily because they do not believe that a higher form of intelligence 1. exists and 2. could be capable.

I am not in the slightest bit religious in the modern sense, but respect the fact others choose to be. I have my own hypotheses as to why religious people would refute the BBT but I am sure they would offend some folk so I won't print them here. As I said I respect others wishes to follow their religions.

May your God go with you.

Adam

[hsl]

My appologies for not having the time to comment on all the posts atm. Some of them really made me think, like Ipso Facto.

Originally Posted by Adam Cheeseman

?

My point being that many atheists accept the Big Bang Theory readily because they do not believe that a higher form of intelligence 1. exists and 2. could be capable.

But where do the atheists think all the ingredients that created the big bang came from?

Personally I just believe something put in place all the ingredients to start life, the universe, everything. But this something had no idea how things would all turn out. No idea what types of life would be created, or how each of those lives would exist. This higher being just got the ball rolling lol.

That would mean no heaven obviously, so I hope I'm wrong, although it doesn't matter anyway!

[Adam Cheeseman]

[quote=hsl;194515]My appologies for not having the time to comment on all the posts atm. Some of them really made me think, like Ipso Facto.

But where do the atheists think all the ingredients that created the big bang came from?

Personally I just believe something put in place all the ingredients to start life, the universe, everything. But this something had no idea how things would all turn out. No idea what types of life would be created, or how each of those lives would exist. This higher being just got the ball rolling lol.

That would mean no heaven obviously, so I hope I'm wrong, although it doesn't matter anyway! [




See my posting in #68. It's a bit woolly I'm afraid.
Why does the universe have to have been created by a being/higher intelligence? As yet there is no proof tentative or otherwise that such an entity exists outside our own planet. Before anyone says that it hasn't been disproven - you can't positively prove a negative.

[ChristinaMarieUK]

Adam,

What kind of proof would you accept?

[Ipso Facto]

[quote=Adam Cheeseman;194410]

Originally Posted by Ipso Facto

? What about atheists? I'm not sure that I understand the question.


My open question was about posting #97 which mentions the creation of the universe from a Christian viewpoint referencing the fact The Bible doesn't use terms ambiguous with other religions.

My point being that many atheists accept the Big Bang Theory readily because they do not believe that a higher form of intelligence 1. exists and 2. could be capable.

I am not in the slightest bit religious in the modern sense, but respect the fact others choose to be. I have my own hypotheses as to why religious people would refute the BBT but I am sure they would offend some folk so I won't print them here. As I said I respect others wishes to follow their religions.

May your God go with you.

Adam

Sorry Adam, I now understand where you are coming from. I may be taking ChristinaMarie's name in vain here but I read her posting (#97) as adding more detail to the Genesis reference that I introduced in posting 95 and hence I understood it to be saying "This is what it says" rather than "This is what happened" - please do correct me if I am wrong, both of you.

Again though, I wouldn't necessarily link an inability to accept the BBT with religious folk - I am sure that this is not a 1 to 1 correlation and that some atheists also find the theory a bit too much to swallow. True, there are those of a religious nature who have read the book (whichever book that may be) and follow it to the letter (leaving out of course the bits that are no longer PC, although there are still some that try to argue the case that women are lesser beings and that homosexuality is "unnatural"). I personally think that the tide is turning and that those individuals will soon be in the minority in the West if they are not already although I have to admit that there are still those who are trying to introduce the concept of Intelligent Design to a wider audience ... surely it will never catch on! I have to admit that I do get stressed when I talk to individuals that have problems thinking outside the box (religious or atheist) or try to force the box to fit the facts - is that just me that gets stressed?

As for the BBT itself, we know that the universe is expanding but has it been proven that all matter has been generated from a single point source? What of the other universes? Have there been multiple bangs or are we perhaps(?) observing the effects of a collision? - remember the jam? Is the universe expanding symetrically? What of the theory that all matter was generated from energy (a sort of M=e/c2)?

I don't know the answers to any of the above which a) shows my ignorance and b) demonstrates that I am still questioning.

[Ipso Facto]

Originally Posted by hsl

My appologies for not having the time to comment on all the posts atm. Some of them really made me think, like Ipso Facto.


But where do the atheists think all the ingredients that created the big bang came from?

Personally I just believe something put in place all the ingredients to start life, the universe, everything. But this something had no idea how things would all turn out. No idea what types of life would be created, or how each of those lives would exist. This higher being just got the ball rolling lol.

That would mean no heaven obviously, so I hope I'm wrong, although it doesn't matter anyway!

Why "obviously"? Have you identified a causal link or is this just an assumption?

Keep thinking ... regards ...

[hsl]

Originally Posted by Adam Cheeseman

See my posting in #68. It's a bit woolly I'm afraid.
Why does the universe have to have been created by a being/higher intelligence? As yet there is no proof tentative or otherwise that such an entity exists outside our own planet. Before anyone says that it hasn't been disproven - you can't positively prove a negative.

I read your post Adam. Well then, when I say I believe something must have created everything, I meant every dimension and particle. It all must have come from the original 'ingredients' imo. So whatever dimension a particle came from to create the big bang, I don't see how either the dimension or particle could just simply 'be'.

That's why I believe in a higher intelligence of some kind starting everything.

I'm ignorant in that I've never even read a book, let alone one on this subject. It's just my own theories based on my own weird version of common sense

[hsl]

Originally Posted by Ipso Facto

Why "obviously"? Have you identified a causal link or is this just an assumption?

Keep thinking ... regards ...

Haha! Sorry, yes it's a casual link I guess...No heaven, imo, because if this higher being isn't cleaver enough to know, or couldn't forsee, for example, what creatures would be created from their 'experiment', I don't see how they could have created or even come from something perfect, like heaven.

[Adam Cheeseman]

Originally Posted by ChristinaMarieUK

Adam,

What kind of proof would you accept?

Anything so long as it is tangible and physically provable. I don't accept the Big Bang Theory out of hand as it is constantly being revised. Neither do I believe in any religious version of creation because that is a matter of faith and, as has been mentioned in other threads about Intelligent Design, faith is a system of belief, not science. Only by scientific means can something be proven to be or not be the answer.

Who has the answer or will we ever truly know? Your guess is as good as mine.

Cheers

Adam

[Birchy]

When you talk about a higher being what do you mean, like some sort of master or god? something beyond what we know exists? I don't even believe that because who created it? And that's something else that can't be explained by science.

Am not really religious and am not totally ruling it out but I don't think there's a god either. Sorry. Religion has caused so much trouble in the world with conflict, wars etc. am not a big fan of it.

Anyway I wondered what people think about a theory that I heard on time I can't remember how.

The big bang is a cycle just like lots of things e.g. the big bang happened and the universe is forever expanding and creating but one day it will retract and collapse back into itself. So maybe everything in the universe will come together back where the big bang started and it will all start again when it explodes. Am not saying this is the answer but just putting it forward as an idea, I'm sure I saw it on a program.

[Ipso Facto]

Originally Posted by Adam Cheeseman

... I don't accept the Big Bang Theory out of hand as it is constantly being revised ...

I think that we're actually reading from the same page on this one ... or is that singing from the same hymn sheet?

[Ipso Facto]

Originally Posted by hsl

Haha! Sorry, yes it's a casual link I guess...No heaven, imo, because if this higher being isn't cleaver enough to know, or couldn't forsee, for example, what creatures would be created from their 'experiment', I don't see how they could have created or even come from something perfect, like heaven.

I think that you have managed to answer my question here: it wasn't actally a typo, I did mean causal (cause-al)- it looks strange even to me because it is not a word that I often write down.

What I was asking, though not very well, was whether you had identified a direct link or cause between a creator and a lack of heaven or whether you were just assuming - your answer and my interpretation would suggest the latter. I would suggest that there isn't a direct link between a creator that adopts a hands off approach and the question of the existance heaven. Each of us have been given the very precious gift of free will and whilst the use (or abuse) of this gift can often create a sense of chaos but the universe, and the earth for that matter, obey a number of very defined rules - gravity is possibly a good example of this - so there is far more structure than there would appear to be at first glance. Have you come across the principle of gaia?

On a more general note, I feel that there are a couple of pit-falls with discussions like this thread. The first is generalisation which can help us to draw connections from within "random" populations or groupings when non exists, and the second is assumption, i.e. when we move from one "fact" to a conclusion when no evidence exists. I try to avoid these but I have to admit that I too often fail. I also realise that I am on a sticky wicket because there are times when I simply rely on faith.

[Ipso Facto]

Hi Birchy, welcome to the floor.

Originally Posted by Birchy

Sorry. Religion has caused so much trouble in the world with conflict, wars etc. am not a big fan of it.

Isn't that a bit like saying you are not in favour of food because it causes obesity? It is not religion(s) that are flawed per se, but the way that they are applied. In any religion, once you get past the fanatics and fundamentalists you will find a very different world and it is they that give "religion" a bad name.

The big bang is a cycle just like lots of things e.g. the big bang happened and the universe is forever expanding and creating but one day it will retract and collapse back into itself. So maybe everything in the universe will come together back where the big bang started and it will all start again when it explodes. Am not saying this is the answer but just putting it forward as an idea, I'm sure I saw it on a program.

I think that we have touched on this. Yes, there is a chance that the universe could implode but if there are multiple universes is there not also a chance that we could get interference - see references to jam sponges above.

I've hogged the airwaves for long enough - over to you guys.

[sometimes]

Any good book/text will give some inspiration to some - I quite like the idea that 'fear is the mind killer' myself. (Dune)

Most if not all religious movements are primarily about codes for living together as a community - the example I know best is ten commandments but the Bible (again the religous book I know best) is full of advice and example of people interacting and provides coping skills. Religions are about conformity - a phrase already used in this thread - 'singing from the same song sheet'.

Some have no religious beliefs but hang on to a 'creator' belief- however this is very little different to the mainstay of religions, ie 'god'. Some need a 'creator' because they are unable to accept there is no purpose.

An off the wall thought - maybe we try to extend our lives because we are frightened of facing the truth - there is no god. From a species survival point of view, once the kids have left home, we all fill our time until we die.

The Big Bang and god are the same thing - we'll never know.

[Birchy]

[quote=Ipso Facto;195214]Hi Birchy, welcome to the floor.



Isn't that a bit like saying you are not in favour of food because it causes obesity? It is not religion(s) that are flawed per se, but the way that they are applied. In any religion, once you get past the fanatics and fundamentalists you will find a very different world and it is they that give "religion" a bad name.

Understand what your saying but food doesn't bomb people, slaughter people, invade countries and kill thousands. And I do understand what you said about fanatics but that's not always the case. But religion isn't for me that's all, if someone has a belief or religion thats fine I have nothing against them.

[Strontium]

Being a fan of food, etc, obeisety - ;p . Im not a fan of people because they bomb people. etc. I guess why did it ever go that far? And then people talk about evolution etc - isn't the human mind 'as evolved' a product of itself, ie too interested in control, domination, absolution, which drives some to extremism? Religions were useful but you have to admit they are a bit out of touch. I don't like the whole creator debate, because it seems circular to me. A creator, or creators, but then where do they exist/come from etc. Why can everything just not be as it is..

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by hsl

But where do the atheists think all the ingredients that created the big bang came from?

and conversely where if believers (using the term losely) are correct where did the higher being / creator come from ?

at the end of the day no theory scientific or religious actually explains anything because whatever created the universe be it a big bang, creator, great green arkelsesure or whatever , then you just have the new question of what created the creator and so on arround

[Lance Morgan]

Oh dear religion and the origins of life its a riddle inside a mystery wrapped in an enigma

[sometimes]

Originally Posted by Lance Morgan

Oh dear religion and the origins of life its a riddle inside a mystery wrapped in an enigma

.. contained in the mind of man.

[Marineboy]

Does space go on forever?
Wow, what a question, yet one with a simple answer.

Yes it does.

Ok, so who has a problem with that? Yeah, me too!
But the problem is not with the answer. The problem is with the human mind. We are not being able to comprehend the vastness of space - we can not comprehend that space goes on forever, can we? Why not? Because we do not have the understanding sufficient for that theory. Ok, for those who believe it can't go on forever, does it have an edge, a limit?
So, we have two possible thoughts here. One, space has no limits, And two, space has boundaries. That suggests that there must be an over the edge scenario. What is on the other side? Nothing? Is that possible?
Once upon a time we believed that the earth was flat. Once upon a time we believed that the earth was the centre of the universe. What do we believe about "space"? We know nothing about what is out there. Forgive me if I tread on the toes of religious belief, but our sun is just one of countless numbers of other suns, perfectly capable of giving life, just as ours has, in the vastness of space. Where do I get that from? The probability that life exists at all has to be accepted, because here we are, with millions of other species on this planet. Creation of life has happened before. Space is simply so vast, that there has to be a positive probability for other suns, other life forms. And of the theories of creation - how and when? And what was there before? And where did everything come from?
To the question, does space go on forever, I ask, is there life out there?
There has to be. We are not alone. And space does go on forever. Within that "forever" other life does exist. Maybe not as we know it, or as we would recognise it. We know next to nothing about what is out there. Ok, so we can peer at faint stars millions of light years away through the most powerful telescopes. Millions of light years - the distance light will travel in millions of years - quite a distance eh. Not compared to space. Our universe is just a grain of sand on a sandy beach of universes.
Just accept it - time and space go on for ever. No start. No point of creation. No middle. No end. Man inhabits a pin point in the vastness of space. We created the thing we now know as time. Before "us" time simply did not exist. Timeless. Yet time is the only measure that we can put on space. It is "us" that attempt some level of understanding of space and time, and try to attach a label of acceptance. And because time and space do not conform to what we need to believe, big questions will haunt mankind - until we really find out what is out there.
Accept it - Life's a beach. Just wish all we left behind were footprints.