Does Space really go on forever?

[Jez]

Jnb does space go on for ever? Keep pumping a balloon it will burst. Though i believe the toss the coin theory- 1 in a miilion tosses the coin will end on its edge meaning is our balloon the universe the one which will never burst?

[Interpreter]

Originally Posted by Jolanta Zofia Nowak

The answer to this one, actually, is quite simple and was worked out some fair time ago:

42

No! That was the meaning of life. I remember people wandering the streets, looking puzzled and muttering "42?"

The atom is in a state of equilibrium. If energy is absorbed or released, the electron will move to a different shell. It gets difficult when two nuclii share the same electron.

[eeyore]

as an aside as I recall at the time that douglas adams picked it 42 was the hubble constant ( itas now 56 or there abouts i think)

[cresshead101]

when i think about your question for long enough,my brain starts to melt!everything that has a beginning has an end,doesn't it?aaarrrrgggh!great question!

[oseor]

What a headache this is....! I can't imagine what is out there going on and on and on and on.....

Hi cresshead101 Long time no see You won't be seeing me now for 2 weeks, on me hols! (Sorry folks, off topic!!)

[jnb]

Originally Posted by Jez

Jnb does space go on for ever?

Space does not go on forever but that is not the same as saying you can not travel forever within it.

If space went on forever then either there would be matter everywhere in which case there would be an infinite mass in the universe and it would all have collapsed long long ago or there would be an edge to the matter in the universe. If there was an edge to the matter in the universe then ignoring the special case that we just happen to be exactly in the centre of the universe we would see an assymetry to the universe, which we don't.

[Jolanta Zofia Nowak]

Originally Posted by Interpreter

No! That was the meaning of life. I remember people wandering the streets, looking puzzled and muttering "42?"

The atom is in a state of equilibrium. If energy is absorbed or released, the electron will move to a different shell. It gets difficult when two nuclii share the same electron.

No, it was the answer to the question of life, the universe and everything...

... and the Hubble Constant has very little to do with it. It's just 'what you get when you multiply 6 and 7'...

[Jez]

cheers Jnb your a good'un!

[Stewy]

I'm freaked out!

[cresshead101]

well then,if space doesn't go on forever ,then what comes after space,eh?(props old wise woman glasses further up snitch)

[jnb]

Originally Posted by Jolanta Zofia Nowak

No, it was the answer to the question of life, the universe and everything...

... and the Hubble Constant has very little to do with it. It's just 'what you get when you multiply 6 and 7'...

Although when they finally determined what the question was it was discovered to be "what do you get if you multiple 6 by 9"

For extra nerd points you can also note that 6 x 9 does equal 42 if you use base 13.

[jnb]

Originally Posted by cresshead101

well then,if space doesn't go on forever ,then what comes after space,eh?(props old wise woman glasses further up snitch)

Except that there is no 'after' space. It curves back on itself much as the surface of the Earth doesn't go on for ever but has no edge where one can lean over and peer into the eye of the great A'Tuin.

[petermcgain]

Originally Posted by Jolanta Zofia Nowak

The answer to this one, actually, is quite simple and was worked out some fair time ago:

42

Difficult to disagree with Douglas Adams, but the real answer to the original question is no, because there's a very large brick wall at the edge of the universe and nobody knows what's behind it.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Jolanta Zofia Nowak

No, it was the answer to the question of life, the universe and everything...

... and the Hubble Constant has very little to do with it. It's just 'what you get when you multiply 6 and 7'...

I know thats what it says in the book but douglas adams picked 42 as the basis for his joke because it was the hubble constant at the time of writing.

if you recall deep though came up with the answer - earth was designed to come up with the question but the reason the question was 6x7 (or indeed 9) was because the original inhabitants of earth were wiped out and surplanted by the human race who were decended from a space ship full of telephone ear piece cleaners, which screwed up the programming.


The rest of the inhabitants of the planet from which the telephone ear piece cleaners had come werre subsequently wiped out by a plague caught from telephone ear pieces

from all which we can conclude that douglas adams was a bit odd .... he'd have fitted in well on wab tho

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by jnb

Except that there is no 'after' space. It curves back on itself much as the surface of the Earth doesn't go on for ever but has no edge where one can lean over and peer into the eye of the great A'Tuin.

but for space to have any dimensions - and thus be able to curve, there must be something surrounding it to define the dimension

[wyevilla]

Originally Posted by eeyore

but for space to have any dimensions - and thus be able to curve, there must be something surrounding it to define the dimension

Ah, Eeyore, you are still thinking in classical 3 dimensions - ie straight lines going on for ever. with curved space, "straight" lines will eventually end up at their origin. The curvature prevents anything leaving the universe and therefore prevents anything being outside of the boundaries of the universe.

As the universe expands its volume will increase as will the size of its boundary. (Analagous to the balloon being blown up. Except that nothing can exist or go beyond the boundary - light, straight lines, spacecraft or a God.)

[eeyore]

yes but for a boudary to exist something must be beyond it otr there can be no edge

[wyevilla]

The boundary is not solid but can be thought of as the paths taken by light (photons) or any other form of radiation as they travel apparently out and away from the universe but eventually curve back towards it under the control of gravity. I tend to think of the "edge " of the universe much like the "edge" of an atom where electrons are pinging into and out of existence. All are inevitably attracted back by the positively charged centre. But outside of this swirling mass there is nothingness.

Sorry, but I can only think in analogies as this is the only way I can grasp what are very alien concepts. Our problem is that as a species our self awareness has evolved in a Newtonian world of three dimensions of space, one of time and to be of a size in which classical physics seems to provide an accurate description of how thing interact. Once you get to something the size of the universe (or for that matter to the size of an atom) what appears to be common sense breaks down.

[cresshead101]

aaarrrgghh!i'm so confused.but i finally know th REAL answer.when space ends there is a giant marshmallow garden full of mutant bunnies and super intellligentpidgles.these creatures control everythin,and the only thing they eat is wabbers and chupa-chups.sure,the human brain can keep thinking up theories,but we'll never really know anything for sure.the laws of space don't have to reflect the human's theory.
......i think,anyway.... (well,that's just my theory...)

[petermcgain]

Just in case you wanted to read an interesting analogy which refers to the infinite universe you might want to read The Library of Babel, a short story by Jorge Luis Borges. It's about an interlocking hexagonal library that goes on for ever in every direction with every possible, random, and often meaningless, permutation of the written word in every language. Quite mind blowing and the sort of short story that stays with you long after you've finished it. (Though I think I'd rather be listening to the tawny owls outside my window.)

[zharca]

Life, the universe and everything?
Maybe

A really esoteric bit of mathematics, the "Reimann hypothesis", has been around for ages and, if the equations are solved, appears to show a relationship between the distribution of prime numbers and Quantum mechanics - pretty much how the unvierse works.

The first two numbers of the Reimann sequence have been known for a long time, they're 1 and 2.

In 1996 a Bristol university team found the missing number - "the third moment of the Reimann zeta function".








it's 42



Gulp

[Strontium]

Sherlock has the answer, because after you look at all the probabilities, what ever is impossible must be the cause. If you believe in quantum gravity, and the many universes hypothesis, then there is a possibility, of zero, that all matter created in the big bang did not under any circumstance interact, but continue to be flung forever into space. The universe is infinite then? Or doesnt god play dice after all?

[jnb]

Originally Posted by Strontium

Sherlock has the answer, because after you look at all the probabilities, what ever is impossible must be the cause. If you believe in quantum gravity, and the many universes hypothesis, then there is a possibility, of zero, that all matter created in the big bang did not under any circumstance interact, but continue to be flung forever into space. The universe is infinite then? Or doesnt god play dice after all?

Que?

Did do you mean "there is a possibility, of zero, that all matter created in the big bang did not under any circumstance interact". I assume you mean 'contract' not interact. If so then yes there is a possibility that there is insufficient matter to reverse universal expansion. The bottom line is whether there is sufficient dark mattter to make the mass of the universe high enough to bring about that contraction. We can be fairly confident that there is insufficient visible matter but the jury remains out otherwise.

[Ukwildlifeo]

Thouigh only partly relevant a quote by einstein pops into my head "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Now that IS genius at work

[k9]

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread. I'm glad there are so many out there who are puzzling over the same questions that keep going through my mind. k9